Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[disc-golf-neil]

I think you've got to mess with a super flippy disc on that high of a launch. Distance lines are typically throwing very high with something that'll turn like crazy to carry the nose down and make use of gravity on the tail end.

I'm gonna play with the simulator now too.

I did change it but left it the same for both and adjusted launch angle instead until both showed a full flight (landing just after fading out of turn)

 

[Brychanus]

Regarding nose up:

I've basically found the opposite of what @disc-golf-neil showed for nose down experiments works for creating nose up angles.

Three ways I've seen to manipulate it:
1. Swoop (aka air bounce)
2. Pronate the arm into the hit. It may also be helpful to move the thumb deeper into the flight plate for pronounced effect.
3. Radial deviation (opposite of pour the coffee)

Can you clarify what phase of the action you are talking about? Things can get weird to describe in words near the end of the action depending on what arm move is used. E.g., effect (2) could depend on what happens before that/the direction of the move relative to the shoulder. Some people "windmill" the arm clockwise, some more counterclockwise etc.

 

[Brychanus]

Also, just wanted to mention what I find cool about this thread at this moment:

You have people like Koiyote, Neil, and Sheep trying to essentially "reverse engineer" components of the arm action here.

I would describe what Sidewinder contributed as "forward engineering" from a theory of human locomotion and adapting it to the person's body and task (throwing). His detailed analyses are a form of applied forward engineering.

Most areas of science I can think of do best in the long run when you have (1) both of these strategies in effect and (2) there are people interested in reconciling tensions between the two, including in how we use language.

 

[RowingBoats]

Also, just wanted to mention what I find cool about this thread at this moment:

You have people like Koiyote, Neil, and Sheep trying to essentially "reverse engineer" components of the arm action here.

I would describe what Sidewinder contributed as "forward engineering" from a theory of human locomotion and adapting it to the person's body and task (throwing). His detailed analyses are a form of applied forward engineering.

Most areas of science I can think of do best in the long run when you have (1) both of these strategies in effect and (2) there are people interested in reconciling tensions between the two, including in how we use language.

Lol this is a thought I have been having too!

I think I am probably VERY much in the 'forward engineering' camp if I understand you correctly. Hard to separate the concepts entirely though.

 

[RowingBoats]

In my experience the nose-up angle is caused a lot more by my swing than my grip, because it's an on-plane issue for me.

Yes, this.

I think one thing people overlook is that all of the talk about fixing nose angle requires otherwise sound form for the advice to work correctly. If you are throwing off the back leg, swooping, over rotating, etc, then applying a lot of these ideas can actually make your throws MORE nose up.

I think this part deserves more discussion myself.

 

[Sewer bill]

Yes, this.

I think one thing people overlook is that all of the talk about fixing nose angle requires otherwise sound form for the advice to work correctly. If you are throwing off the back leg, swooping, over rotating, etc, then applying a lot of these ideas can actually make your throws MORE nose up.

I think this part deserves more discussion myself.

The part most people really gloss over is that our swings are at an analytical level unbelievably complicated multi pendulum bar linkages but at face value the key points can be found immediately just by watching a young child throw a disc.

Kids don't know any of the extreme analysis of what constitues good form yet most kids have it nailed almost immediately after an hour or two of throwing.

Why is that?

Because comparatively to an adult they're throwing a comparatively heavier trash can lid diameter object. They have to move around the disc and they feel the weight of the disc at the end of the backswing and delay correctly during the swing otherwise they would hit themselves with it.

If you asked a kid to throw a mini they would be all over the place and would need lots of practice to throw it, put a disc golf disc in their hand and by their smaller size alone they almost immediately solve the form issues many adults spend years battling.

I have watched my nephews go from never holding a disc to blasting putters 100 feet in a matter of minutes.

Throwing a disc well is not complicated but we sure as hell can make it be when simple problems arise.

We use wayyy too much strength in our throws and 90% of people have velocity to gain just by slowing down enough to perceive the motion of our own body.

Sidewinder has the hammer thing down in helping adults. It works. I think the next logical step is dry fire at 1% speed with no disc no hammer, just a yoga move. If you can swing slow and perceive the ground up through your feet and through your hips causing the forearm delay just from the weight of your own body you can build an immensely powerful swing without needing any sort of hyper analysis or special moves or techniques.

 

[RowingBoats]

The part most people really gloss over is that our swings are at an analytical level unbelievably complicated multi pendulum bar linkages but at face value the key points can be found immediately just by watching a young child throw a disc.

Kids don't know any of the extreme analysis of what constitues good form yet most kids have it nailed almost immediately after an hour or two of throwing.

Why is that?

Because comparatively to an adult they're throwing a comparatively heavier trash can lid diameter object. They have to move around the disc and they feel the weight of the disc at the end of the backswing and delay correctly during the swing otherwise they would hit themselves with it.

If you asked a kid to throw a mini they would be all over the place and would need lots of practice to throw it, put a disc golf disc in their hand and by their smaller size alone they almost immediately solve the form issues many adults spend years battling.

I have watched my nephews go from never holding a disc to blasting putters 100 feet in a matter of minutes.

Throwing a disc well is not complicated but we sure as hell can make it be when simple problems arise.

We use wayyy too much strength in our throws and 90% of people have velocity to gain just by slowing down enough to perceive the motion of our own body.

Sidewinder has the hammer thing down in helping adults. It works. I think the next logical step is dry fire at 1% speed with no disc no hammer, just a yoga move. If you can swing slow and perceive the ground up through your feet and through your hips causing the forearm delay just from the weight of your own body you can build an immensely powerful swing without needing any sort of hyper analysis or special moves or techniques.

Yes, indeed lol. I still haven't tried playing around in a pool but I imagine that would be enlightening for some people also.

But you are spot on. Particularly with the concept of slowing down. Then slowing down more. Then slowing down to an absurd degree.

And seeing what happens.

I think there is also some interesting discussion to be had about how people are conceptualizing all of this. I like talking about biomechanics a bit, and there is value to it, but at the end of the day we are trying to throw a physical object.

I made major strides when I made a focus shift to that reality, rather than focusing on hyper specific body positions. I forget where, but SW22 at some point said something like "Look at what the heck you are doing to the disc" when you are throwing, and this is something that goes a looooong way.

I think that is part of what Sheep is trying to say too. That you need to study the disc itself, not your hands/wrist etc in isolation.

Maybe this makes no sense to other people lol. To me there is a major difference between thinking about your body movements, and thinking about the object in your hand and what you want to do to it.

 

[Brychanus]

For forward vs. reverse engineering ask several different engineers and you'll get slightly different answers, but this is a fun read to get the flavor. Difference between Forward Engineering and Reverse Engineering - GeeksforGeeks

And yeah, there's not like a totally hard line there as much as the direction of discovery. I would say that all my "hammer time" was (and still is) also involves "reverse engineering" what was working for other objects and finding it on discs. I just wasn't using a TechDisc at the time to do it, then happy to find that in some measurements it was lining up. Will it for everyone? What works best for whom? Dunno, I'm open minded. Just seems like both strategies can work.

Kids, pools, and "secret sauce": my 2 y/o shows exactly what Bill is describing with a mini vs. full sized disc. When she picks up the mini, she kind of wings it with her arm like a "soft" beach frisbee throw. When she picks up a max weight Comet she heaves it with her entire body and laughs at any damage she caused.

Is it surprising that Rowing takes some cues faster from wrestling, Sewer takes it from skateboarding, Sidewinder from swimming and baseball, Josh from Overthrow from tennis, Slingshot from Basketball? Me from boxing and dance? Probably not (not excluding anyone intentionally, just the first things that came to mind). Is everyone who works hard at it for a long time going to end up some mishmash of things to an extent? Probably. I think you see that all the way to the top level on tour, too.

Tangential but part of the "big picture" train I'm emphasizing. Barela's form always looks "pullier" to me. Eagle's looks "swingier." I think instead of those terms in a strict sense it would just be better to talk about posture, sequence, timing, direction etc. of actions etc. I wouldn't be surprised if their sequence and grips are different (they are), and that all those things are related to each other too. They're both "letting the arm unfurl" along a plane in one meaning. Will we also learn/have them tinker with parts vs. whole move? Why yes, I could believe that too.




Keep it up gang & thanks Neil and Koiyote are stirring it up with TechDisc findings for discussion.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Regarding nose up:

I've basically found the opposite of what @disc-golf-neil showed for nose down experiments works for creating nose up angles.

Three ways I've seen to manipulate it:
1. Swoop (aka air bounce)
2. Pronate the arm into the hit. It may also be helpful to move the thumb deeper into the flight plate for pronounced effect.
3. Radial deviation (opposite of pour the coffee)

Your point about the thumb being deeper can aid pronation when wanting to nose up made me think this could be a big issue for AMs who accidentally pronate.

They hear "use a lot of thumb pressure" and maybe have their thumb decently into the flight plate, and push it down which creates a lot of tension in the wrist that can be alleviated by pronating, whereas if the thumb is centered on where the flight plate meets the rim, you can push it hard without feeling an urge to pronate.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sidewinder has the hammer thing down in helping adults. It works. I think the next logical step is dry fire at 1% speed with no disc no hammer, just a yoga move. If you can swing slow and perceive the ground up through your feet and through your hips causing the forearm delay just from the weight of your own body you can build an immensely powerful swing without needing any sort of hyper analysis or special moves or techniques.

 

[Brychanus]

Yes, indeed lol. I still haven't tried playing around in a pool but I imagine that would be enlightening for some people also.

Oh wait I cannot let this slip by.

Speaking of "natural learning aids," this was low key one of the best things I did for myself last summer, at least theoretically at the time. It made a lot more sense to me why SW emphasizes rotational moves out of linear forces and finding natural, reciprocating leverage and sequence through the arms.

What did you say once? "It's in there like Preggo"? Indeed it can be.

That inspired me to compare Hogan moving slow vs. his full swing slowed down last year:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

For forward vs. reverse engineering ask several different engineers and you'll get slightly different answers, but this is a fun read to get the flavor. Difference between Forward Engineering and Reverse Engineering - GeeksforGeeks

And yeah, there's not like a totally hard line there as much as the direction of discovery. I would say that all my "hammer time" was (and still is) also involves "reverse engineering" what was working for other objects and finding it on discs. I just wasn't using a TechDisc at the time to do it, then happy to find that in some measurements it was lining up. Will it for everyone? What works best for whom? Dunno, I'm open minded. Just seems like both strategies can work.

Kids, pools, and "secret sauce": my 2 y/o shows exactly what Bill is describing with a mini vs. full sized disc. When she picks up the mini, she kind of wings it with her arm like a "soft" beach frisbee throw. When she picks up a max weight Comet she heaves it with her entire body and laughs at any damage she caused.

Is it surprising that Rowing takes some cues faster from wrestling, Sewer takes it from skateboarding, Sidewinder from swimming and baseball, Josh from Overthrow from tennis, Slingshot from Basketball? Me from boxing and dance? Probably not (not excluding anyone intentionally, just the first things that came to mind). Is everyone who works hard at it for a long time going to end up some mishmash of things to an extent? Probably. I think you see that all the way to the top level on tour, too.

Tangential but part of the "big picture" train I'm emphasizing. Barela's form always looks "pullier" to me. Eagle's looks "swingier." I think instead of those terms in a strict sense it would just be better to talk about posture, sequence, timing, direction etc. of actions etc. I wouldn't be surprised if their sequence and grips are different (they are), and that all those things are related to each other too. They're both "letting the arm unfurl" along a plane in one meaning. Will we also learn/have them tinker with parts vs. whole move? Why yes, I could believe that too.




Keep it up gang & thanks Neil and Koiyote are stirring it up with TechDisc findings for discussion.

What is it that you are seeing that looks more swingy vs pully?
The biggest difference I see that jumps out immediately is AB emphasizing more wrist whip. Wrist flexion while he starts to coil but elbow is still bent, wrist extension on peak of reach back creating a clearly visible spring back to wrist flexion as he starts the pull through. So to me with that focus, AB is more whippier with the wrist.

Interestingly, I tried the wrist extension on reachback and it did seem to help spring my wrist into flexion with less effort and I got a surprisingly fast throw Although a lot of people don't extend the wrist despite going into flexion during the redirect so it's not necessary but it seemed to be helpful timing / priming for the wrist.

I ran into Gannon Buhr at Roy G Guerro disc golf course 1 week after the open at austin and asked him why he thinks he gets so much more spin (tech disc stats) compared to many other pros and he said he thinks it's from his wrist 'lag', which I just interpret as having wrist flexion before the redirect.
You can see his wrist pretty well in this vid:

 

[Brychanus]

What is it that you are seeing that looks more swingy vs pully?
The biggest difference I see that jumps out immediately is AB emphasizing more wrist whip. Wrist flexion while he starts to coil but elbow is still bent, wrist extension on peak of reach back creating a clearly visible spring back to wrist flexion as he starts the pull through. So to me with that focus, AB is more whippier with the wrist.

Interestingly, I tried the wrist extension on reachback and it did seem to help spring my wrist into flexion with less effort and I got a surprisingly fast throw Although a lot of people don't extend the wrist despite going into flexion during the redirect so it's not necessary but it seemed to be helpful timing / priming for the wrist.

I ran into Gannon Buhr at Roy G Guerro disc golf course 1 week after the open at austin and asked him why he thinks he gets so much more spin (tech disc stats) compared to many other pros and he said he thinks it's from his wrist 'lag', which I just interpret as having wrist flexion before the redirect.
You can see his wrist pretty well in this vid:

I'm kind of being playful to be honest.

There's a large number of people who use the word "swing" and "pull" and pros also often describe or demonstrate versions of what looks like either action (or really, a fairly large number of actions).

One thing I think I believe about what I've learned here and elsewhere is that balance, posture, and sequence (and the infinitely more detailed stuff we can discuss) are actually just one big package of motion. Sidewinder was keen to point out many of the patterns that seem to unify sports movements work in this way.

What I personally think is going on is that most top pros are using a version of "the move" (fundamental locomotion pattern involving Figure 8 through the hips). What some people see as "pullier" are any number of things that emphasize horizontal motion along the tee, from the hip mechanics to the movement of the feet to the action of the hips, core, shoulders, and arms. What some people see as "swingier" are the more obviously centrifugal/circular/pendular motions. Sometimes people get confused and detail oriented without thinking from the fundamental motion pattern perspective, sometimes to their peril.

The irony is that Sidewinder himself just calls it "how to move," which is even a subtitle in his "Figure 8 standstills" video. He actually thinks it's as simple as that and has tried to get people to see it for more than a decade with hundreds of videos, form breakdowns, and thousands of forum posts.

So I personally just think about form in this continuum of force transfer, balance, posture, and sequence through the human body in the context of gravity and transmitting forces to the disc through a release point. Like every other high-level sports move. I would prefer not even to say "swing" or "pull." It's a "throw." But I am trying to also play a new role teasing that there's a continuum of moves along dimensions of primary forces and people persist in using the words, and I don't just want to be dismissive or unjustly stubborn, either.

The coaching problem IMHO is that every adult brain sees and hears and does things differently, so we haven't solved this problem in the community more generally even if some theories are much more true than false. So right now I am trying out new words on the internet and paying more attention to what people say and do and how they react.

For instance, it is interesting that you responded focusing immediately on the wrist. Someone else I know (several of them) would have started at the shoulders. I or possibly Sidewinder would have probably started at the posture and balance in transition over the rear leg, and before that. Everyone's probably a little bit (and often a lot) right.

I'm going to look closer at the wrist here btw in this context, noticing a few interesting things.

I'll share this image one more time, maybe I should put this in my signature for a while hehe:

 

[Brychanus]

I ran into Gannon Buhr at Roy G Guerro disc golf course 1 week after the open at austin and asked him why he thinks he gets so much more spin (tech disc stats) compared to many other pros and he said he thinks it's from his wrist 'lag', which I just interpret as having wrist flexion before the redirect.

Yeah I see it. It's like a horizontal/wrist curl/flexion variant of what GG does with supination heading into the release. That makes a lot of intuitive sense.

Now what Sidewinder or I would probably next point out is how his weight shift works relative to that move, and point out that is probably part of how it works, too.

Hypothesis: if GG tried Gannon's immediately, or Gannon tried to isolate it and did GG's, it would not instantly work very well for either of them. May be difficult for either of them to do it completely with the opposite player's move. Maybe disc-golf-neil can get 'em to do it sometime

 

[HyzerRoc]

Tangential but part of the "big picture" train I'm emphasizing. Barela's form always looks "pullier" to me. Eagle's looks "swingier." I think instead of those terms in a strict sense it would just be better to talk about posture, sequence, timing, direction etc. of actions etc. I wouldn't be surprised if their sequence and grips are different (they are), and that all those things are related to each other too. They're both "letting the arm unfurl" along a plane in one meaning. Will we also learn/have them tinker with parts vs. whole move? Why yes, I could believe that too.

I want to see these guys do the doorframe drill. Their arm slots are wildly different with Barela slotting in much higher than Eagle - there is probably noone that slots in as low as eagle.

I want to pick on an idea you posted in the thread about Isaac Robinsons thread: Isaac Robinson's mechanics

Someone like Garrett Gurthie probably needs such a pronounced nose down release to get his discs down to the ground at all with his vertical form. His standard throw is so high he uses the nose down to control the height of the throw a little better which also results in a good way to throw for distance competitions.

Isaac also prefers a higher line of attack with pronounced nose down release, but he seems to do it more with a reverse swoop than turning the key.



I would guess that players prefering a lower line of attack would throw closer to a neutral nose than Gurthie and Robinson.

 

[sidewinder22]

I ran into Gannon Buhr at Roy G Guerro disc golf course 1 week after the open at austin and asked him why he thinks he gets so much more spin (tech disc stats) compared to many other pros and he said he thinks it's from his wrist 'lag', which I just interpret as having wrist flexion before the redirect.

Gannon has the largest ape index, potential moment arm, and is also hyper mobile.

 

[Brychanus]

I want to see these guys do the doorframe drill. Their arm slots are wildly different with Barela slotting in much higher than Eagle - there is probably noone that slots in as low as eagle.

I want to pick on an idea you posted in the thread about Isaac Robinsons thread: Isaac Robinson's mechanics

Someone like Garrett Gurthie probably needs such a pronounced nose down release to get his discs down to the ground at all with his vertical form. His standard throw is so high he uses the nose down to control the height of the throw a little better which also results in a good way to throw for distance competitions.

Isaac also prefers a higher line of attack with pronounced nose down release, but he seems to do it more with a reverse swoop than turning the key.

View attachment 336177

I would guess that players prefering a lower line of attack would throw closer to a neutral nose than Gurthie and Robinson.

Curious about the "down to the ground" idea you said here.

Sidewinder mentioned he thought that Isaac's hips were probably anteverted which might also explain the difference in his shift "against the frame." I had speculated IIRC at the time that he also may have forced his form to conform to a "90 degrees at the pocket" style which always looked a little uncomfortable but what do I really know?

I do think your hypothetical door frame drill would be cool to see for each pro!

 

[Brychanus]

Gannon has the largest ape index, potential moment arm, and is also hyper mobile.

My brother has hyper mobility and a positive ape index and a good looking lever sequence. I've never gotten a disc in his hand but I have some predictions about where he'd start out relative to me lmao

 

[HyzerRoc]

Curious about the "down to the ground" idea you said here.

It is meant more as a cheeky comment about how far GG throws. If he wasnt throwing with pronounced nose down his hyzers would just take off, never to be seen again.

 

[Sewer bill]

It is meant more as a cheeky comment about how far GG throws. If he wasnt throwing with pronounced nose down his hyzers would just take off, never to be seen again.

One time like 15+ years ago I challenged GG to hit the water tower at north watertower park from hole 10s teepad. I could hit the pole with the biggest anny flex I could muster a little more than halfway up, he threw an illusion hyzer and doinked it right off the top of the dome which is like 50+ feet higher.

Other pros have hit the dome throwing right under it but no one else ever hit it from hole 10s pad.