"The Method" by Brian Weissman

[StupendousMan]

I was watching Bodanza's video from the last few days here (I don't know when it was released, I watched it yesterday though) where he was with his S&C coach. That coach said a line that really resonated with me. 'The muscles dictate the mechanics'. I may be paraphrasing slightly. The idea being that beyond just our own limb lengths, etc, the way our muscles are working when performing tasks is going to essentially control our form. Not meaning making technical changes isn't a thing of course, just that some technical changes are impossible without addressing issues beneath the surface. Some could even make you 'worse' if they mean you no longer play to your strengths. I'd even take it a step further and say that without addressing some prior issues, certain technical changes could end up being downright dangerous.

The negative interpretation of that going to the method (knowing full well I haven't seen the videos yet and have just glanced at the site) would be that looking at the rear leg, much like slingshots stuff, if you have poor internal rotation in your trail leg hip, trying to implement that could wind up being downright harmful and leave you hurt very fast. This isn't to comment at all on the validity or lack there-of with the idea of forced internal rotation in the trail leg, just that the motion itself could wind up being fairly harmful if implemented in someone with restrictions there. (I look to this one specifically just from my own background. Track and field, with little exception, is an extremely linear sport, and both external and internal rotation in the hips tends to end up being very limited).

The positive interpretation of that concept with the method site, is that he does seem to love using conceptual language most of the time. I.e. a more feel based approach, which I think has a reasonable amount of validity when it comes to allowing the muscles to perform in the way they are currently best suited to.

Long story short I have no idea what to expect from his actual videos beyond it being clear he's spent a ton of time and feels quite passionate about this. (Which, is enough for me to give them all a watch and reserve judgement even if I end up implementing none of it). But watching Bodanza's video the S&C guy really resonated with me. Which, isn't surprising given I'm an S&C guy myself lol.

 

[HyzerRoc]

All of reality is physics. It informs everything you encounter in your life. Everything you see, everything you hear, everything you touch. It undergirds every force, it binds everything together.

Just know that, like everything, my comment is informed by physics.

Honestly the copywriting in this is just really weird. It is hyperbolic to the point it reads as disingenuous.



The first thing they demonstrate looks an awful lot like teaching people to lock out their knee while throwing. You cant balance on a locked out knee, because you cant move it and compensate. Without having watched all of it I guess it is just the same stuff he posted on the youtube channel but presented differently.

I need to hear peoples opinion in his "back leg twist" take.

I'm out playing a round, gonna give it a closer look later on

The hip obviously rotates, but I dont think it is done by intentionally rotating it. Your back hip drops below the front hip by deweighting it and the front hip comes up by loading your plant leg with weight into the ground and then bouncing off of it, by pushing the leg up like a pogo stick. But not locking out your knee in the process. The hip turns as a cause of the leg action but I dont think you should try and turn the hip consciously, instead just let it happen.



The way Brychanus demonstrates it here is also a hip turn by weighting and deweighting. To me the hip movement looks close to what Weisman demonstrates but it is still different because the hip here turns as an affect and not as a cause.

 

[Brychanus]

The way Brychanus demonstrates it here is also a hip turn by weighting and deweighting. To me the hip movement looks close to what Weisman demonstrates but it is still different because the hip here turns as an affect and not as a cause.

Just wanted to mention:

(1) wouldn't read too much into any of the specific actions my own body takes, especially a couple years ago. I sometimes still think about taking a lot of old videos down.

(2) I have a physical abnormality in my rear leg, so my action on the side will likely be at least somewhat abnormal no matter what I do!

Such is life.

 

[Brychanus]

...the hip here turns as an effect and not as a cause.

Most coaches I have talked to agree that trying to force actions including rotations through the hips is generally slower and less efficient than moving the body athletically and letting the motion of the hips and balance move freely in that context.

FWIW most coaches who have bothered to get data use a ground force reaction model for the impact force and transfer in the plant.

FWIW2 Weissman's balance, posture, sequence, and mechanics involve details we could talk about that don't appear to be present in DGPT players.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

I need to hear peoples opinion in his "back leg twist" take.

I'm out playing a round, gonna give it a closer look later on

Its the same idea as internally rotating your following arm to 'deweight' the rear shoulder so it can rotate through faster.

The leg twist ends up being a pretty passive thing, bit doing it actively gets you familiar with the motion. It just allows the rear hip to snap forward more sharply and consolidates more body mass balanced behind the brace.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

for clarity after reading hyzerroc's posts:
Intentional active twisting of hips - not a thing (i think)

Intentional twisting of LEG to allow hip to rotate more snappily - do it active to learn the motion, then it will gradually chill out and end up subconscious in your final throw.

 

[Brychanus]

Just some weight shift theory refreshers:

If the rear leg is externally rotating like a pitcher's as the weight is shifting forward in a drift more than a forced maneuver, you are generally in better shape than if it is internally rotating/squishing the bug.

As the rear leg deweights in the weight shift it should swing into internal rotation.

Some people emphasize rear leg actions of various degrees and kinds more than others, with varying degrees and kinds of specificity than others.

The posture of the body in the context of the shift over the rear leg in part determines how much and where muscular activity is/needs to be recruited to pull off the move.

You can attempt to isolate and control components of all of the above.

 

[Kennets]

Not gonna lie. I've been given Brian shit both on here, reddit AND on YouTube due to his "marketing strategies" and the way he hyped up this project.

IF he really just is as passionate about disc golf and just wanna help people as he looks like, I'm a fucking internet bully, lol.

I can't really figure out his page just yet. I do actually like the production of the videos, looks nice and clean and a huge contrast to some dude riding cue sticks in his basement like Harry Potter (hi seabass. I still love your videos.).

Information wise, I'm still not sure where I stand. I do understand the "leg twist" and how it's "easier to snap through", but. Isn't that more of a byproduct of a solid brace with the right mechanics?

Would the "drill" actually serve as a great mental cue/feeling? Both for the weight shift, posture and brace?

Would playing around with that possibly lead to a higher chance of injuries?

Only one way to find out I guess.

And thanks Owen for chiming in!

 

[HyzerRoc]

Just wanted to mention:

(1) wouldn't read too much into any of the specific actions my own body takes, especially a couple years ago. I sometimes still think about taking a lot of old videos down.

(2) I have a physical abnormality in my rear leg, so my action on the side will likely be at least somewhat abnormal no matter what I do!

Such is life.

Yeah ok, guess I should stop posting those. I still like the pogo-stick analogy and Im still a bit bummed you dont have you progress video listed where you show how you started and how your swing progressed. That one was nice because it showed how the rhythm of a throw evolves with better technique.

for clarity after reading hyzerroc's posts:
Intentional active twisting of hips - not a thing (i think)

Intentional twisting of LEG to allow hip to rotate more snappily - do it active to learn the motion, then it will gradually chill out and end up subconscious in your final throw.

Ok, I guess I misunderstood what Brian was teaching then. I thought in the Corey case study he tells her to rotate the hips really fast, but what he actually says is to twist the rear leg in.

Doing this rear leg twisting motion I can feel the same muscle activating that gets sore when throwing (and bracing) a lot. It probably is the gluteus medius, but not 100% sure. However I also get the impression that it cuts my swing and brace off a bit too soon when twisting my rear leg instead of just letting it deweight with the weight shift. I can see how people can get a feeling for the brace this way but would also be worried that practicing this way would not take them through the full motion.

Not gonna lie. I've been given Brian shit both on here, reddit AND on YouTube due to his "marketing strategies" and the way he hyped up this project.

Guess im in the same boat. I think I take most issue in the marketing speak, which to be fair is not part of the teaching.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah ok, guess I should stop posting those. I still like the pogo-stick analogy and Im still a bit bummed you dont have you progress video listed where you show how you started and how your swing progressed. That one was nice because it showed how the rhythm of a throw evolves with better technique.

It's all good to post them, when I'm around I can critique my own work too. There's potentially some value in that. When I talk about anyone else's takes it always can go both ways. That's how I learn, too.

In that video in particular I had much poorer balance and posture, and my body was trapped much more between my feet, and the Figure 8 action and axes were wrong. Not all of that is related to my leg issue of course.

I could the progression if it's interesting to at least one other person. Since I'm now quite convinced that you can always work on something & everyone has their own limits, I'm more interested these days in those topics. Rhythm specifically is still very interesting to me because exploring alternate rhythms in the X-step has been helping me compensate for my rear leg to an extent (switching to crow hop or gallop rhythm helps me get over it quicker, which mitigates some of its weaknesses; of course some people use those rhythms at a very high level too). My own compensation has also made me much more interested in how other people cope with problems and what they physically can and cannot do. I would never "sell" my compensation to you.

FWIW I usually prefer to feel my Glutes working over the minor supporting muscles and use that to support my growth and physical training. I do occasionally get some Gluteus Medius soreness if I'm throwing a lot, probably from the lateral "stop" effect and resisting in the brace. I do think the muscular load almost certainly changes (and have discussed it with others) depending on the posture and details of the move. One new thing I learned more about was reactive chains in athletic moves like pitching and other throwing sports, which is part of what transmits the ground forces in movement.

What muscles are working here?


What about here (I intentionally chose this contrast to McBeth)?



Now here?



What does and doesn't matter about the muscles? How would understanding the move before these screenshots explain what is happening in the screenshots? Etc.

 

[ninjabq]

I could the progression if it's interesting to at least one other person.

I think it'd be cool to see.

Doing this rear leg twisting motion I can feel the same muscle activating that gets sore when throwing (and bracing) a lot. It probably is the gluteus medius, but not 100% sure. However I also get the impression that it cuts my swing and brace off a bit too soon when twisting my rear leg instead of just letting it deweight with the weight shift. I can see how people can get a feeling for the brace this way but would also be worried that practicing this way would not take them through the full motion.

Based on how you and Trebuchet are describing it, is this related to the Jaani Thigh Master thing (any more than "all things form are related")?

 

[HyzerRoc]

I could the progression if it's interesting to at least one other person. Since I'm now quite convinced that you can always work on something & everyone has their own limits, I'm more interested these days in those topics. Rhythm specifically is still very interesting to me because exploring alternate rhythms in the X-step has been helping me compensate for my rear leg to an extent (switching to crow hop or gallop rhythm helps me get over it quicker, which mitigates some of its weaknesses; of course some people use those rhythms at a very high level too). My own compensation has also made me much more interested in how other people cope with problems and what they physically can and cannot do. I would never "sell" my compensation to you.

I think the video im talking about was linked here, but I would watch a follow-up to that. I lurk in your from thread and your tweaks from time to time and I think it would be interesting to see the directions you went in and why you decided to take your form in new directions.

FWIW I usually prefer to feel my Glutes working over the minor supporting muscles and use that to support my growth and physical training. I do occasionally get some Gluteus Medius soreness if I'm throwing a lot, probably from the lateral "stop" effect and resisting in the brace. I do think the muscular load almost certainly changes (and have discussed it with others) depending on the posture and details of the move. One new thing I learned more about was reactive chains in athletic moves like pitching and other throwing sports, which is part of what transmits the ground forces in movement.

Right now the gluteus medius is like the main thing that gets weak for me, I also thought about dedicating some workout time to it so I can throw more. But my brace is probably also not ideal and I come over the top and not doing what you call shifting underneath. But enough of personal problems, dont want to litter this thread with them.

What muscles are working here?
View attachment 338814

What about here (I intentionally chose this contrast to McBeth)?
View attachment 338816


Now here?
View attachment 338815


What does and doesn't matter about the muscles? How would understanding the move before these screenshots explain what is happening in the screenshots? Etc.

McBeth's CoM is much further behind his brace/his tilted balance is in a narrower angle against the ground. McBeths right hip is really high and his left one has dropped much lower than that of Weisman (im using both of their shirtlines as a tell here). I cant really see how Weisman gets a lot of leverage against his planted front heel as his knee is already on top of his ankle here when it should be inside of the ankle in order to be able to brace his weight against it. And Weisman is much flatter in his posture, therefore his drive leg is not as much behind him as the one of McBeth.

It is much easier to talk about balance and posture here, thinking about this in terms of muscles used is really hard.

Based on how you and Trebuchet are describing it, is this related to the Jaani Thigh Master thing (any more than "all things form are related")?

I couldn't really connect the thigh master drill to my own throwing. Im also a bit careful because my own throw is honestly mediocre and infering from how well something works in my throw is probably not a good indicator (that also goes for the other comment I made about the twisting rear leg cue. I might also do that one just plain wrong).

If I had to guess, when you twist the rear leg in, it will be difficult to decelerate/control the drive leg in the lateral move towards the target because the thigh muscles are in an awkward position to work.

 

[Nick Carroll]

It bugs me that Brian has the same shoulder collapse problem I have, but he's able to correct somehow during the swing, and produces practically no wobble. To be fair, I've seen other crushers like Eliezra do that. Gives me hope, but it tells me there's more to smooth throwing than merely the elbow drop issue.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Both Brian and Sebastian rotate the arm excessively during the peak reachback, like I do. Brian collapses the shoulder more during the early part of the swing, than Sebastian does, however. They both correct by the time the disc enters the power pocket. But the disc does wobble a little bit due to the flexion of the disc because of the change in angle of the disc as it moves through the swing plane. This becomes noticeable in the slomo footage.

They're performing very well despite that. I don't think it's a show stopper. I do think they could probably throw a touch farther, with less wobble, if they fix that. Keep in mind I totally recognize they are otherwise throwing the disc very well and I'm not critiquing their form overall. Sebastian actually looks and throws like top distance throwers, so I want to make sure my tiny critiques here are only on a specific "white whale" of an issue for me.

 

[Nick Carroll]

My Thoughts on The Method by Brian Weissman: (I didn't want to create a separate thread, but also didn't want this to drag down my 2 previous posts)

Everything in The Method appears to be on the site. A lot of the text and video content is more of a product pitch. It doesn't look like a sales pitch, as there isn't a product being sold.

The essential product is leg activation, from the feet upward, to allow the player to generate kinetic energy to assist the throw with the arm. It powers the throw.

The content has a very high production value. It's divided into a "nuggets" type approach, which is very common method for video training. The main page of the website basically is a long page of text between video frames, but it's very well written, on top of the excellent video and graphics quality.

It's a chronological method, grouped together with a ground-up approach. I have a video that takes about these and other troubleshooting/training techniques, but I think combining methods can work well. For example, Scott Stokely combines a chronological method with top-down, whereas Coach T (Slingshot) combine chronological with compare-and-contrast. BlitzDG is primarily a top-down coach, whereas Owen (TrebDG) is primarily a bottom-up coach. But like every coach, multiple methods are used on a case-by-case basis.

There is a focus in this series on producing force from the non-dominant side of the body, which seems to be what a lot of the series orients on.

It calls out the lack of ability in feel. Once you feel it, you can do it. I have to say, this is one of the areas that stuck out to me the most. This is the first sport I've ever played where I feel like I don't feel very well what I'm doing, which I think what inhibits me from making progress, so it's good to see that as a an issue that is called back to over the course of several videos, and some text.

They say nobody is talking about these tips but I didn't personally see anything new outside of the Broom Drill and Copenhagen Plank, and I've seen similar use of a broom from Sidewinder/Seabas22 on his YT channel but I don't recall him calling it that exactly.

The way I see it: Brian and the team isn't inventing anything, as much as creating a set of standards in the Method. Each step is a standard. It appears to be a progression system, as outlined. It's also relatively simple list of things to practice like a drill, such as Establishing the Frame, Leverage the Disc, Adding Momentum, etc.

I think ultimately this sort of system can work for someone new, or more advanced, if they are missing one or more things. You start from scratch and follow the steps in the video.

I'll wrap up by saying this: Since this Method isn't designed to drive sales or bring a profit, I recommend a more concise set of videos without a lot of the "salesmanship" that someone could basically just walk through. I'm not knocking what's there, but there's a ton of people out there who want the most essential content, and will focus on that, and then stop. So I think there's a "bang for your buck" aspect here that should be focused on. Think of it as additional content.

So I'm not knocking anything here. I enjoyed watching all the videos and reading the content. It gave me stuff to think about, and I'm not a coach so I don't have a lot of specific critiques on anything presented.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Jaani]

Back leg disc golf baby, yeaaaah!

 

[sidewinder22]

I really don't like to talk negative about people or things, especially when they are sincerely trying to help others, and for free, and they were my students. This was rough and feel like so much resource was wasted.

I don't understand the rear leg twist power source thing, it still basically is squishing the bug, but you start on the frontside. Twisting the rear leg pulls you back off the front leg/hip. Brian collapses his front hip(note the crease in the shorts) and goes over top the hip. He also mentions Eversion but is showing Inversion.

My rotation in One Leg Drill is happening from the movement of the front leg (not static front leg) and core, my rear leg is pivoting along for the ride. Note how I'm standing up on my front hip(no crease in shorts) and everything swivels on it without over-rotating or collapsing.




Dr. Yeager says there is no primary muscle for IR of the femur and it is the weakest movement the hip can do. The main force producing move is abduction (away) and is assisted by ER, with the intention of driving straight line force while rotation happens due to how the body works.

 

[Jaani]

It's because some people don't understand the backhand mechanics and have never learned to throw correctly, so they need to come up with a novel solution, whether it works or not. It's okay to help people, and for free, why not? You can go for it, but if I'm asked about it, I won't endorse anyone who teaches the forced back leg twist, let alone the back leg push down, as the source of power. Again, before anyone accuses me: YES, I have been there but I'm not anymore, and it's been a while since I was.

 

[Brychanus]

I think the video im talking about was linked here, but I would watch a follow-up to that. I lurk in your from thread and your tweaks from time to time and I think it would be interesting to see the directions you went in and why you decided to take your form in new directions.


Right now the gluteus medius is like the main thing that gets weak for me, I also thought about dedicating some workout time to it so I can throw more. But my brace is probably also not ideal and I come over the top and not doing what you call shifting underneath. But enough of personal problems, dont want to litter this thread with them.

McBeth's CoM is much further behind his brace/his tilted balance is in a narrower angle against the ground. McBeths right hip is really high and his left one has dropped much lower than that of Weisman (im using both of their shirtlines as a tell here). I cant really see how Weisman gets a lot of leverage against his planted front heel as his knee is already on top of his ankle here when it should be inside of the ankle in order to be able to brace his weight against it. And Weisman is much flatter in his posture, therefore his drive leg is not as much behind him as the one of McBeth.

It is much easier to talk about balance and posture here, thinking about this in terms of muscles used is really hard.


I couldn't really connect the thigh master drill to my own throwing. Im also a bit careful because my own throw is honestly mediocre and infering from how well something works in my throw is probably not a good indicator (that also goes for the other comment I made about the twisting rear leg cue. I might also do that one just plain wrong).

If I had to guess, when you twist the rear leg in, it will be difficult to decelerate/control the drive leg in the lateral move towards the target because the thigh muscles are in an awkward position to work.

I think in general it's wise not to infer too much from one's own motion alone. Theoretically "ideal" rear leg does kind of a "corkscrew" maneuver as it takes weight and balance on the rear side, but you shouldn't have to intentionally corkscrew the leg in real time. It should ideally work as a unit with the body's posture in transition. Speaking of being a bit careful relative to one's own throws: this is a case I'm bringing up just because I can't do it completely on my rear leg side, but some version of that is true in advanced movement.

Good read on McBeth IMHO. Now go back and watch Weissman's posture and balance over the rear leg, and figure out why his legs move like that into the shift and why his shoulder and elbow take the trajectory they do. Hint - it involves where his balance is (or isn't) in transition.

 

[Brychanus]

Back leg disc golf baby, yeaaaah!

I really don't like to talk negative about people or things, especially when they are sincerely trying to help others, and for free, and they were my students. This was rough and feel like so much resource was wasted.

I don't understand the rear leg twist power source thing, it still basically is squishing the bug, but you start on the frontside. Twisting the rear leg pulls you back off the front leg/hip. Brian collapses his front hip(note the crease in the shorts) and goes over top the hip. He also mentions Eversion but is showing Inversion.

My rotation in One Leg Drill is happening from the movement of the front leg (not static front leg) and core, my rear leg is pivoting along for the ride. Note how I'm standing up on my front hip(no crease in shorts) and everything swivels on it without over-rotating or collapsing.

View attachment 338835
View attachment 338836

Dr. Yeager says there is no primary muscle for IR of the femur and it is the weakest movement the hip can do. The main force producing move is abduction (away) and is assisted by ER, with the intention of driving straight line force while rotation happens due to how the body works.

I have tried to draw people out whenever they bring up back leg throwing and it is interesting what they say.

There's a subgroup that is interested in the SS style version that moves off the rear leg with forced internal rotation. When I bring that up (I usually am being as polite as possible and lead with sincere curiosity) most people don't ever seem to know what I'm talking about, or pretend they don't, or just change the focus or subject.

There seems to be this broader notion about back leg throwing now that I find much murkier where people say things like "throw with the back leg" and "push from the back leg" and so on. "Euphoric," "only way to throw," "everyone is wrong and needs to check themselves" etc.

I thought human locomotion and athletics always involved both legs (assuming you have two), and in DG you clearly need to get weight off off the front foot and into the plant to throw. I think almost everyone seems to agree there. I still have had a hard time seeing anything very convincing that the most advanced backhands in the world are doing anything more than an athletic move somewhat like a pitcher/Hershyzer off the rear leg in good posture and balance. Yes, there is variation, and yes, we can talk about efficiency and power implications. If you do it while the legs are running, hopping, or athletically walking, they will (or should) contribute a lot of springiness on their own. The activation of the leg is proportional to the stride length, momentum, player mass, athletic variables, etc.

Interestingly, when I watch what someone does when they say they use "back leg throwing," they are always out of posture or balance or clearly missing one or more major mechanics that are evident in pro motion. The better those other features are, the more it looks like pro movement.

Weissman's twist is a compensation for his balance being off and needing to force the rear leg into internal rotation. There are many species of that move, but it's just one more form of "spin shift."

I still think of course emphasizing bits and pieces as exaggerations can be helpful, but when the moves are so far away from the "real deal"...

BTW front leg activation is part of what a plant leg does, but via leverage and transmitting ground force reactions. I learned that Weissman (who doesn't look especially heavy to me) deadlifts between 400 or 500 pounds. If true, imagine the front leg resistance you could get relative to your body mass.

Also looks like unlike other extreme supinators, he ends up needing to yoke his move around his body, goes extreme wing up into the pocket, and deal with the out of leverage shoulder, and air bounces.

Obligatory "nothing personal" and I agree it's another person trying to help people for free. Just some observations.