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2016 Memorial Championship presented by Discraft

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What I would like to know is what would have happened if Paul's bathroom break took 2 mins, 5mins, 10mins or even 20 mins. Would it have been a warning still? Dnf? 888?

Where do you draw the line? Because I'm not finding that line in the rules. Unless I missed something.
 
Easily the best part of the whole fiasco.

Seeing McPeePants step up and just park it without going through his routine and then watching JohnE fail on his shot and mutter something about 'bull****' under his breath was so good. Couldn't have scripted it better.

Johne messed up his 45' putt by not turbo putting it, he's proven he can make long turbos pissed off.
 
Little off topic but anybody know why Stokley wasn't at the Memorial?

I figured with his HUGE off season PR campaign he would definitely be representing/promoting at the first NT of the year.
 
I'm not an attorney and I'd be shocked if there's anyone on DGCR who is either, but I'd be interested in hearing what the thinking was from the attorneys the PDGA hired to draft and word our rule book.

Like in any set of rules or constitution, there are grey areas that are open for interpretation. 801 in general and 801.03 specifically are chock full of words and ideas that are open-ended, at best. Phrases like, "potential visual distractions" or "refusal to perform and action expected by the rules" are a couple of examples. But the biggie is the in the rule at question for McPeeGate: 801.03.A(2): "the player has taken a REASONABLE time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie."

The word "reasonable" is at the center of this whole debate. What is reasonable? Who gets to decide what is reasonable? When it's not possible to apply the letter of the law to a scenario (such as McPeeGate) then it becomes necessary to apply the spirit of the law.

This Is what I would like to ask the people who drafted our rules about. Because it's obvious that it's impossible to draft a set of rules to govern every single contingency, how do the drafters prepare for an unforeseen action or I imagined point of contention, like McPeeGate?
 
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What I would like to know is what would have happened if Paul's bathroom break took 2 mins, 5mins, 10mins or even 20 mins. Would it have been a warning still? Dnf? 888?

Where do you draw the line? Because I'm not finding that line in the rules. Unless I missed something.

Definitely seems to be some ambiguity as to the next step there. But there is ambiguity in a lot of sports rules (NFL catch rule, anyone?) so it's not surprising. Maybe this is something the Game Development Team can address.
 
Definitely seems to be some ambiguity as to the next step there. But there is ambiguity in a lot of sports rules (NFL catch rule, anyone?) so it's not surprising. Maybe this is something the Game Development Team can address.

Oh man... As a life-long Lions fan, don't even MENTION "Completing the Process." I'll boycott Noodle Arm! ;)
 
This. Can't wait for the love triangle storyline between Paul, Hannah, and whoever Rebecca Duffy McMahon chooses. :rolleyes:

What are you gonna do when the Aviar bangs the chains, brother?!?!
Aviar Jenkins?
 
Little off topic but anybody know why Stokley wasn't at the Memorial?

I figured with his HUGE off season PR campaign he would definitely be representing/promoting at the first NT of the year.

He was in SW Ohio this weekend promoting his cause, giving clinics and playing doubles.
 
I'm not an attorney and I'd be shocked if there's anyone on DGCR who is either, but I'd be interested in hearing what the thinking was from the attorneys the PDGA hired to draft and word our rule book.

Like in any set of rules or constitution, there are grey areas that are open for interpretation. 801 in general and 801.03 specifically are chock full of words and ideas that are open-ended, at best. Phrases like, "potential visual distractions" or "refusal to perform and action expected by the rules" are a couple of examples. But the biggie is the in the rule at question for McPeeGate: 801.03.A(2): "the player has taken a REASONABLE time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie."

The word "reasonable" is at the center of this whole debate. What is reasonable? Who gets to decide what is reasonable? When it's not possible to apply the letter of the law to a scenario (such as McPeeGate) then it becomes necessary to apply the spirit of the law.

This Is what I would like to ask the people who drafted our rules about. Because it's obvious that it's impossible to draft a set of rules to govern every single contingency, how do the drafters prepare for an unforeseen action or I imagined point of contention, like McPeeGate?

I can't swear to it, but A) the rule book is organic, it has evolved over time as situations have arisen. B) there have been a number of attorneys associated with the PDGA, some on the board. One out of Michigan, ten or so years ago, who raised a number of issues about gambling.

C) The open ended rules are designed that way, by my interpretation. The rules that are specific are also meant to be that way, you have to have a flat answer. Say for example OB. The thirty second rule is meant to keep play moving, it isn't meant to be punitive in the sense that every player who takes 31 seconds needs a punishment, it's meant to say, you don't get to wait five minutes till the wind dies down, or take five minutes to sneak off and have a joint. You need to be timely. There are those that abuse it, both ways, but it is a spirit of the game kind of rule. If you try and define what a distraction is, it will be different for each player. OB is the same for every player, you're over the line or you're not. I grant that on close calls it can be difficult, but the rules are specific, a card ruling is called for.

In the two situations, one needs to be absolute, the other not. That's the reason that John didn't get the call. He was correct, it was over thirty seconds, but the vagaries of the rule allow for interpretation, as is appropriate, given that Paul wasn't trying to gain some advantage, unless as has been pointed out, pee on the hand is an advantage.
 
What I would like to know is what would have happened if Paul's bathroom break took 2 mins, 5mins, 10mins or even 20 mins. Would it have been a warning still? Dnf? 888?

Where do you draw the line? Because I'm not finding that line in the rules. Unless I missed something.


I think that is the point. Common sense would tell you that a player who takes 10 minutes to pee is gaming the system, he's trying to gain an advantage. A player who runs off to pee and runs back throwing as quickly as possible isn't gaming, he's taking a pee.

If I stand on the pad, and the wind is howling, I tuck my disc under my arm, and say, "I feel distracted," and sit there for three minutes until the wind dies down, pretty much everyone knows what I'm doing. Yep, you're gonna have some mistakes, and some gamesmanship, but that is inevitable.

John was being a donkey. Paul had to pee, and John was either gaming, or being mad at the world. Either way, it wasn't Paul who wasn't thinking about the spirt of the game....

Part of the rules structure allows you to go to the TD, and to also go to the rules, or disciplinary committee. If a player repeatedly breaks the subtle rules to gain an advantage, the PDGA acts. I've seen it. Go look through the actions from the DC. Again, nothing is perfect, but there are venues.
 
I can't swear to it, but A) the rule book is organic, it has evolved over time as situations have arisen. B) there have been a number of attorneys associated with the PDGA, some on the board. One out of Michigan, ten or so years ago, who raised a number of issues about gambling.

C) The open ended rules are designed that way, by my interpretation. The rules that are specific are also meant to be that way, you have to have a flat answer. Say for example OB. The thirty second rule is meant to keep play moving, it isn't meant to be punitive in the sense that every player who takes 31 seconds needs a punishment, it's meant to say, you don't get to wait five minutes till the wind dies down, or take five minutes to sneak off and have a joint. You need to be timely. There are those that abuse it, both ways, but it is a spirit of the game kind of rule. If you try and define what a distraction is, it will be different for each player. OB is the same for every player, you're over the line or you're not. I grant that on close calls it can be difficult, but the rules are specific, a card ruling is called for.

In the two situations, one needs to be absolute, the other not. That's the reason that John didn't get the call. He was correct, it was over thirty seconds, but the vagaries of the rule allow for interpretation, as is appropriate, given that Paul wasn't trying to gain some advantage, unless as has been pointed out, pee on the hand is an advantage.

Exactly correct. Unfortunately, many folks can't stand concepts like: vagaries; grey areas; things that are open to interpretation; the "spirit of the law." Many nervous folks prefer the simplicity and comfort of black & white. Unfortunately the grey is everywhere and the only black & white you're gonna get in life is when you're born, when you die and what score you posted.
 
Exactly correct. Unfortunately, many folks can't stand concepts like: vagaries; grey areas; things that are open to interpretation; the "spirit of the law." Many nervous folks prefer the simplicity and comfort of black & white. Unfortunately the grey is everywhere and the only black & white you're gonna get in life is when you're born, when you die and what score you posted.

If my recollection serves, there have been a number of gray areas raised over the years, and the PDGA has comment that they don't want a firmer rule. Clearly they get that some things can't be defined specifically.

BTW - I refereed Soccer for some time, they have a spirit of the game interpretation also. They discuss it frequently, but for some reason, the audience doesn't get it....
 
BTW - I refereed Soccer for some time, they have a spirit of the game interpretation also. They discuss it frequently, but for some reason, the audience doesn't get it....

No doubt. There's a spirit of the game aspect to rules in all sports. You can never scrub out the grey in any sport, no matter how many new rules you draft. That makes people mental.
 
Can't you just let a person piss and move on with the game? Not picking on Johne, but he's getting to that age where men have to use the bathroom more than they do in younger years, and I would have figured he would have been more understanding.
 
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