2017 MPO Worlds - Augusta

[DavidSauls]

Not sure that's what happened here but regardless, should a world championship be decided on a course that hasn't been tested before? What if there are safety concerns that no one thought about? What if someone says, "I'll donate 1 million dollars for payout but I get to host world's at my personal carnival course." Where do you draw the line?

I don't think you draw a line. You try to use best judgment---for an untested new course, for existing courses in a bid, and for special changes to existing courses, which we've often seen.

An untested course may not be "best practices", but it's one of the many factors the PDGA should weigh.

 

[_MTL_]

An untested course may not be "best practices", but it's one of the many factors the PDGA should weigh.

Absolutely. I don't think you should immediately disregard a new course, but if you need a tiebreaker, it's a good one.

 

[bwgort]

I don't think you draw a line. You try to use best judgment---for an untested new course, for existing courses in a bid, and for special changes to existing courses, which we've often seen.

An untested course may not be "best practices", but it's one of the many factors the PDGA should weigh.

It just seems weird that the PDGA is willing to draw a hard line on 4 rounds, 4 days, ect, but not willing to make published standards for the courses used. And given my description of the events prior to this worlds, it seems like there should be some new standards.

 

[1978]

Huh? You lost me. Are you saying since I think it is weak that he is so touchy about movement, and because I pointed it out, he will be even MORE touchy? Please explain.

I believe that he is saying... If someone is generally touchy, it is not hard to expect them to be touchy in all situations.

I dont think he is saying, comments on social media lead him to be more anxious on the course. I had to read both of your comments like 10 times to even see how you could get that out of his.

 

[_MTL_]

It just seems weird that the PDGA is willing to draw a hard line on 4 rounds, 4 days, ect, but not willing to make published standards for the courses used. And given my description of the events prior to this worlds, it seems like there should be some new standards.

But there is....

http://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_pro_worlds_bid_process_-2018.pdf

On Appendix E:

The main competition venue (site of the Finals) must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the LOC
 Minimum parking (on site or off site) for 300-500 cars
 Restroom building(s) and port-a-johns located throughout the course
 Covered pavilion(s) or building reserved by the LOC for tournament headquarters
 50,000 sq. feet of green space for spectator and vendor village
Satellite competition venue must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the host organization
 Parking (on site or off site) for 100 cars minimum
 Restrooms or porta-johns
 Covered pavilion or building reserved by the host organization for course
headquarters
Courses used in competition must be set up in tournament configuration no
later than 4 days (96 hours) before the start of the singles competition
Wednesday morning.

I bolded the part the explains Fort Gordon. I'm not saying I agree...just pointing it out.

 

[bwgort]

But there is....

http://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_pro_worlds_bid_process_-2018.pdf

On Appendix E:

The main competition venue (site of the Finals) must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the LOC
 Minimum parking (on site or off site) for 300-500 cars
 Restroom building(s) and port-a-johns located throughout the course
 Covered pavilion(s) or building reserved by the LOC for tournament headquarters
 50,000 sq. feet of green space for spectator and vendor village
Satellite competition venue must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the host organization
 Parking (on site or off site) for 100 cars minimum
 Restrooms or porta-johns
 Covered pavilion or building reserved by the host organization for course
headquarters
Courses used in competition must be set up in tournament configuration no
later than 4 days (96 hours) before the start of the singles competition
Wednesday morning.

I bolded the part the explains Fort Gordon. I'm not saying I agree...just pointing it out.

Right, that's why I said they need new standards that are quality based. Also, Fort Gordon didn't meet those standards because it did not have "50,000 sq. feet of green space for spectator and vendor village" as there was no vending allowed at the Fort.

 

[1978]

Here's a few people here that seem to only want Paul to win time after time. It's an impressive feat. Is it just that people that weren't there to witness clump reign, would like to see Paul do that?

I for one like a shakeup. I like seeing multiple names at the top and pushing each other. Although I'd be fine seeing another shoot off with Paul and Rick next year, I'd be excited to see a new name too.

People like and hate to see a dynasty. I love living through the Bulls, Tiger, the Yankees ( event though I hate them) Patriots... its fun to know you have intimate memories of the greatest sports moments. I wasnt able to see any of the climo stuff. I hope Paul and Ricky win 5 more each, we can all say we saw the greatest DG rivalry ever.

 

[Discette]

But there is....

http://www.pdga.com/files/pdga_pro_worlds_bid_process_-2018.pdf

On Appendix E:

The main competition venue (site of the Finals) must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the LOC
 Minimum parking (on site or off site) for 300-500 cars
 Restroom building(s) and port-a-johns located throughout the course
 Covered pavilion(s) or building reserved by the LOC for tournament headquarters
 50,000 sq. feet of green space for spectator and vendor village
Satellite competition venue must have at a minimum:
 18-hole championship caliber disc golf course reserved by the host organization
 Parking (on site or off site) for 100 cars minimum
 Restrooms or porta-johns
 Covered pavilion or building reserved by the host organization for course
headquarters
Courses used in competition must be set up in tournament configuration no
later than 4 days (96 hours) before the start of the singles competition
Wednesday morning.

I bolded the part the explains Fort Gordon. I'm not saying I agree...just pointing it out.

Where are the standards about tee pads?

 

[1978]

-So you were a competitor? I could not tell from your post. I wouldn't think live coverage would be a priority.

-Sounds like it sucked all around then.

-My claims were baseless, but from someone who appreciates the effort taken to put on an event as big as Worlds.

1. That is a problem with the entire sport, but Worlds has always been more about the title and experience than the money.

2. Hard to tell. Some may appreciate the opportunity to play a Worlds without having to commit as much time as past years.

The Fort Gordon course did seem too new for a Worlds (based on the gnats alone). It also seemed distracting because of the crowds on the back nine R4.

My apologies for the earlier comment. My Worlds experiences were always great mostly because of the off the course events, glad I skipped this one.

Fort Gordon was also bad because the PDGA lacked the forsight to understand players with plenty of spotters would just go up and around everything. Sure it wows the crowd, but it left a lot of the wooded holes kind of boring. They should know better, but they never do. The PDGA never seems to have actual good players/course designers, develop rules or course layouts for major events.

 

[_MTL_]

Where are the standards about tee pads?

I'm not making the argument that the link I posted is a complete list, or even a good one.

I was simply clarifying that if someone said the list did not exist / was not published, that it is both.

 

[_MTL_]

The PDGA never seems to have actual good players/course designers, develop rules or course layouts for major events.

I'll be interested to see your opinion of this process after we finish 2018AW

 

[1978]

I'll be interested to see your opinion of this process after we finish 2018AW

Different. We arent making a temp course for the best players in the world. Where you can throw over new growth vegetation.

Most of the courses, in Charlotte, are too wooded in mature forests to make these kinds of shots up and over everything and too short to make that even worth while for a top 10 pro. They tried at Bradford 18L and 8L by just throwing far and letting a spotter find it. We wouldnt play those holes if we play Bradford anyway. Those are the only holes in Charlotte that I can see someone skipping the intended fairway (that does not already have a Mando on it)

I fully expect the extent of the 2018AW review will be us negotiating on meaningless stuff, lol and selecting layouts.

 

[bhadella]

Fort Gordon was also bad because the PDGA lacked the forsight to understand players with plenty of spotters would just go up and around everything. Sure it wows the crowd, but it left a lot of the wooded holes kind of boring. They should know better, but they never do. The PDGA never seems to have actual good players/course designers, develop rules or course layouts for major events.

For all of the spotters they had for the final round, it took forever for them to figure out what happened when Hammes threw his second shot on #3. Everyone assumed it didn't cross inbounds (it did) and then it took minutes to find the spotter to even know where it last crossed inbounds and for them to actually find the disc.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My wish is that course layouts be tested in higher level competition at least a year before an event, and ideally, courses proposed as part of a bid should have been tested where design and flow problems would have been resolved before they were even included as part of a bid. That would be a more professional process for including courses in major events where a bid is involved including NTs.

 

[Dollar26045]

IMO

This whole Worlds experience was very confusing to me. I honestly feel a little cheated as a long time PDGA Member. Let me explain why.

Loads of OUR money (it is the member's organization, right?) went to build the International Disc Golf Center and it's 3 beautiful courses. I distinctly remember them advertising/pitching it as a place to hold Major events like Worlds. 3 courses and camping on site. So why was it necessary to go elsewhere and spread the players out?

The WR Jackson course has been one of the best courses in GA for 10 years. Apparently they think it's the only course at the IDGC good enough for Pro Worlds. Instead of fixing/adjusting the ED and Warner courses (which are both plenty good enough already) they decided to change Jackson, and wait to start until 1 MONTH BEFORE THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! Thank goodness someone talked them out of most of the changes. But if changes had to be made, why so late in the game? (The fresh cutting also made for the worst I have seen the ticks out at the IDGC since 2007)



BTW, the Steady Ed course is great. The only complaint we hear during big events is that people shoot too far under Par. THAT'S BECAUSE All of the Par 5's would be called Par 4's if they were on Jackson. There are also three Par 4's that you can call Par 3's for Top players. Same course but leaders are -9 after a round instead of -16. Problem solved.

As for the Fort...

-Fort Gordon is brand new and designed by a new course designer. I don't believe you have to be a high level player to design a good course. But I don't believe that HALF of the World Championship should be played at a never tested course by a never tested designer. The course designer had NO idea that the players would just throw over the fairways on multiple holes. He admitted it. How would he know any different if he doesn't/hasn't played Majors/NTs or went to those kinds of courses to watch the top level players compete.

-Safety! Blind shots coming "death from above" style constantly on the back 9. Roots and stumps everywhere with lots of downed trees never being cleared away. Hole 17 had a big tree they had recently cut down and cut into a few pieces still inside the circle of the basket. The back 9 honestly looked like it had been in for a week or 2. It was incredibly rough off and on the "fairways".

-Fort Gordon is a half hour away not counting waiting in line at the gate every time you go, so add 5 to 20 minutes depending on how busy it is.



Is it it weird that the PDGA wouldn't give A Tier status to the Disc Golf Pro Tour Events that weren't long standing events with a good history, even though they had Steve Dodge and Staff there to help run each event, PLUS 10k added to the purse? But the same PDGA will host the World Championship themselves and let it be played on a course that has never even hosted a C Tier. Does that bother anyone else?


I don't really know why/how a lot of these decisions were made, but it was definitely disappointing.

However, the staff and spotters did a great job during the week. The volunteers made this week the best it could have been under the circumstances. I greatly appreciate them coming out in the blazing hot weather to try and further our experience. And Mad Props to everyone who helped keep water on the course. I can't imagine how many gallons went down out there!

 

[1978]

There literally were branches touching the chains in 2015 Am worlds and 2016,2017 Bowling Green. I doubt it will be a tough review if the stuff I saw in 2015 wasnt addressed.

 

[lyleoross]

I rarely complain about the PDGA, but the time is right. Significant changes in overall structure should be voted on. Yep, I know what the traveling pros wanted. That should have been part of the information presented to our membership.

I'm a big believer in representative democracy. But good representatives include their constituents.

I find it interesting that the PDGA specifically managed this event because of the changes to World's, yet "seem" to have gotten so many things wrong. I'm very curious to hear commentary from traveling pros.

 

[1978]

For all of the spotters they had for the final round, it took forever for them to figure out what happened when Hammes threw his second shot on #3. Everyone assumed it didn't cross inbounds (it did) and then it took minutes to find the spotter to even know where it last crossed inbounds and for them to actually find the disc.

Mind blowingly, there was a U shaped OB when a straight line would have been fine, right in the middle of the fairway. This made it so his drive was in bounds for that small 10x10 U shape. These are the people that lead our sport. I couldnt believe they would mark OB in this fashion...then that 10ft peninsula of OB gave a player that threw a terrible shot a mark 300ft up the fairway.

 

[_MTL_]

I rarely complain about the PDGA, but the time is right. Significant changes in overall structure should be voted on. Yep, I know what the traveling pros wanted. That should have been part of the information presented to our membership.

I'm a big believer in representative democracy. But good representatives include their constituents.

I find it interesting that the PDGA specifically managed this event because of the changes to World's, yet "seem" to have gotten so many things wrong. I'm very curious to hear commentary from traveling pros.

Interesting segue.

The Board of Director vote is soon and the candidates have been announced.

PDGA President Rebecca Duffy is not seeking re-election. This clearly will be a big shakeup.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Wonder who on the remaining Board wants to or is likely to become the new President? Unlikely they would vote one of the two new Board members as Prez, even if Decker is re-elected since he has been great as the primary financial expert on the Board.