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3-step pump question

hisdudeness47

Birdie Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2021
Messages
356
Location
Reno, NV
Hey guys, question about ze pump upcoming. Yesterday I had a really good headwind field session with a real focus on footwork. I've been jumping around with my walk/run up and preshot routine far too much. One day it's forward facing 5 step, the next it's a sideways 3 step. One day I'll pendulum and the next I'll be lock my elbow on my target line from the top and work around the disc. I have standstill days and I even played a round with a little crow hop in my x step the other day and shot a great -7 round. I'm a good player at this point, can throw a big distance, average under par, but I'm still feeling inconsistent with accuracy and rhythm. I'm always messing around with my swing and while it's good to experiment, I'm not getting comfortable. I probably have a semi-different swing every time I play tags.

Anyway, I think I found something I can rock with yesterday on the field. Haven't used it in a round yet. I'm curious if this is a rhythm I want. I should have filmed it. It's a 3 step approach where I start standing feet together pointing about 45 degrees from my target line. I take a strong first step with my right foot pointing 90 degrees from my target line. I'm putting serious weight on that FRONT foot. At the same time I'm taking that first step I start a firm ELBOW pump (not a disc pump, it's still back) and to an extent a hip pump right down my target line. I feel like these pumps sear that target line into my mind and body. Now, with my next step, my left foot X-step I feel like I'm still pumping my elbow/keeping it forward. I switch my weight onto my rear left toes in the x-step, start moving past my disc, and finish as normal. Oh my. Something special happened. I've never had a session where I started hitting lines with such consistency and this was in literal 25+ headwind. I was hitting near my cone targets at 150-300 with regularity and blasting my drivers on golf lines 375+. It was so pretty, these discs were coming out with such spin that they were essentially ignoring the wind. I really felt like this was helping with my timing/not starting my rear turn too quick. I was even adding a little hop by the end and increasing distance without losing my accuracy. Then I had to call it quits. Too many throws.

My question is this. This pump sequence is not prescribed like this. Uli talks about the pump happening DURING the X-step. What I am doing is essentially pumping/leaving my elbow forward for my first step AND the X-step. To step with the right and then pump during the X-step feels awkward and almost too quick for me. Starting the pump one step earlier feels like it gives me an extra step to lock into my target line. Keep in mind it's just a firm elbow pump and my disc is staying within my shoulder frame right at my chest until the final step. I'm not having that "pumping early on the wrong step and turning back too early" result like Uli says. In fact quite the opposite.

Is it unusual/inefficient to essentially start ZE PUMP a step early? Any pros kind of do this? Should I really work on saving that pump for the X-step only? Just because I was hitting good strong lines doesn't mean a ton to me yet. I've had a good days before where it was lost the next. However, this did happen right after throwing repeated inconsistent and nose up headwind ducks with my "old form". Same session. Maybe I found a tweak that could work for me that I can use going forward? Dunno!

I hope I explained that decently enough so you can picture it.
 
I forgot to mention, I was able to make some of my understable discs fly in a headwind like there was no headwind. Some of my best throws yesterday were Leopard3s and Valkyries on a slight hyzer release, but nothing crazy. 350+ golf lines. I threw them experimentally and their flights made me question physics. Never seen anything like it. They looked like flex lines. What does this mean? Was I getting good speed? Spin? Angle on release? Nose angle? Or was there a slight crosswind that fooled me?

I don't want to be fooled into considering using these in a round, but man it was sweet.
 
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Uli actively teaches the pump in sync with the x-step to help two major flaws people just getting into the backhand throw have: timing and turning around too early. When you're able to pump the disc out in front of you in sync with the x-step, it assures that you haven't already turned your body around by reaching out/behind too early and backpedaling towards the target.

Pumping the disc in-line with your x-step assures that the disc stays centered on your drive foot. From that point onwards it's literally just a one-step drill, where you're reaching full extension in sync with the ball of your brace foot touching the ground. A lot of the pros will pump ever so slightly ahead of their x-step, but what matters is that they're not driving the disc backwards too early. As you can see on Nate Doss's drive form, he's keeping the disc out in front of him, and it does line up with his x-step, and it's only when he starts striding forward with his plant foot that he starts pushing the disc backwards. Paul McBeth is another example of a pump that's just subtly ahead of his x-step, but again he doesn't push the disc back early. Other pros that might not look like they have a pump at first actually do as well, and it's aligned with their x-step. Calvin has a real tiny one that's barely noticeable, as well as Drew Gibson and Simon Lizotte.
 
Just actually watched the Scratch to Scratch, that was hard to watch. He explains the pump timing wrong and teaching spinning out. Wonder if this is related to his "significant injury".

 
Just actually watched the Scratch to Scratch, that was hard to watch. He explains the pump timing wrong and teaching spinning out. Wonder if this is related to his "significant injury".

Why is this "spinning out" motion so commonly taught by people, and even by pretty high-level players? I'm sincerely curious. I got hurt last summer doing a version of that motion. It also took a lot of work and patience from SW22 to get my weight shift functioning better, and it seems like it's really hard for a lot of people based on skimming form reviews.

For Uli specifically, I was curious whether there's a clear "what I practice vs. preach" difference, and I'm not sure. E.g., here's the Gatekeeper Form check showing his form within the past year (@ 13:00 is pretty clear, but you can check any of several tee shots):



It looks like something is a little off in Uli's drive leg position and ground pressure. He's coming through and around the brace more than e.g., Gibson, where it looks like Gibson has a clearer "shift from behind." Is Uli spinning out here?

Among public instructors, I've also seen Coach T (Slingshot) and Josh (Overthrow) both teach spinning out on their very visible platforms. Bradley Walker appeared to under Spin and Throw based on this board's history, etc. I have seen Coach T be dismissive of criticism on this topic.

Josh previously had an exchange with Rhatton1 and Seabas22/SW22 on Reddit about "squishing the bug," and I've seen him demonstrate it in some vids since that exchange. I also spoke with him at some length recently and he stated that the weight shift language was mostly over his head/different from his tennis background instruction, and he now teaches people to "plant then rotate", which still looks more or less the same to me in the more recent videos. Whatever the language, I question the visual/mechanical instruction out there.

Sorry if this came across as a little blunt, but this particular form problem and my injury is what led me to learn here. To the extent I can be any help, I really don't want to see people getting hurt (or just being led astray when getting serious about form).
 
Uli isn't spinning out ^ there, he leans back and gets stuck and reaching out with the front leg. Spinning out is a (bad)way to attempt to get unstuck, so maybe that's why he's demoing that.

I liked Uli with his old form, rear foot plantar flexes and everts. Never really liked what I've seen since he changed to a traditional x-step.

 
That's helpful, thank you. After watching that old form again, I got curious what it looked like shortly after 2012. He looks a little less stuck back in 2015 here, which looks maybe a bit better w/ a smaller x-step, more hop, and drive foot eversion than he has recently:



I wonder if his form also started drifting/overcorrecting over time, or compensating due to injuries as time has gone on.
 
That is interesting, it looks better back then. Possibly injury related, or a tweak in technique.
 
I just started playing with a small pump and saw Uli's advice in the Scratch to Scratch series.

I did not know his timing advice was not quite right and have been incorporating my pump based on it.

I did not realize until this thread that I was not doing exactly what he said actually got the timing correct (I think).

Yay body doing it right despite what my stupid brain was telling it.
 
Ulibarri talks about his own current injury and increasing significant injuries at the top level in disc golf on the Nick and Matt show (I'm aware the show isn't everyone's cup of tea, but appreciated Uli's discussion of the issues).

Uli Joins around 27:48:

 
Ulibarri talks about his own current injury and increasing significant injuries at the top level in disc golf on the Nick and Matt show (I'm aware the show isn't everyone's cup of tea, but appreciated Uli's discussion of the issues).

Uli Joins around 27:48:

Interesting it's the shoulder injured, and he's not engaging the calf via plantar flexion.
Found some evidence of it, apparently Sandstrom was the OG DGI or Disc Golf Institute. Will might want to pay attention to Christian here about shoulder injury being related to the calf, since he is pushing off the heel instead of the instep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAOJW8NGrw#t=7m19s

 
Interesting it's the shoulder injured, and he's not engaging the calf via plantar flexion.

Now that you mention it, my likelihood of getting little shoulder tweaks has gone way down after you got my calves flexing more.

I wonder if it's due to trying to compensate and generate the force too late in the chain and/or the shoulder being on a slightly less safe swing path.

After I had a tweak a couple weeks ago, I realized my risk of a shoulder tweak goes way up right after my legs start to fatigue. Now I always try to remind myself to keep them ready by bouncing a bit before the tee/Berkshire stomp. If the calves feel depleted I call it quits.
 
Just actually watched the Scratch to Scratch, that was hard to watch. He explains the pump timing wrong and teaching spinning out.

I'm not familiar with this "spinning out" being spoke of.

Anyone throw me a bone here?
 
I'm not familiar with this "spinning out" being spoke of.

Anyone throw me a bone here?

Pretty good explanation here:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3807086#post3807086

The image (rotated) shows spinning out vs lateral shift.

attachment.php
 

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