[Innova] Air bubbles in the rim

[Twmccoy]

OK, I'm noticing a trend with Innova/Discmania lately, and it isn't a good one. Full (or nearly full) weight champion discs with air bubbles in the rim. I'm not really talking about blizzard plastic. This plastic actually has a smooth texture, but you can see a plethora of air bubbles in the rim. The air bubbles are only in the rim, not the flight plate.

My problem with these discs is that they fly like crap. By that I mean they're super overstable and glideless. Lately I've run across a champion Boss and DD2 with this problem. Good looking discs, but ungodly meat hooks. I've also seen numerous Destroyers that were the same way.

Frankly, I think Innova has been releasing some questionable champion plastic lately. Lots of air bubbles and just a rough texture. The plastic is opaque and has a blizzardy look to it. Its affecting the flight and overall quality of the disc. I find that this plastic gets dinged up way easier and wears out a lot faster.

Also, do air bubbles in the rim affect the gyroscopic effect of the disc? I can't think of any other reason these champion discs are coming out so glideless and overstable.

 

[Moose33]

I have seen a fair bit of star with bubble streaks as well. I actually have a G* destroyer that has a bunch as well and it definitely is less stable than the G* I have without them.

 

[Casey 1988]

My brother had 2 167 gram Champion Destroyers I got him in 2018 for Christmas or Birthday as part of the gift and one was bubbles large big bubbles in the disc and the other nope and had the average dome with flat top I think flies the best in Champion Destroyers. Well his second good one was the Stiff almost Jolly Launcher type of Champion and so both due to plastic type were OS and one with bubbles was a no glide disc. He did the hot car method to the discs and the one with the almost Jolly Launcher Champion Disc became like an average run of Z FLX and the One with Bubbles got stiffer in the rim. He just recycled the discs as they were garbage.

Also in late 2018 to early 2019 I got a bunch of Z Stalkers at 170-172 grams thinking the mold was going oop but they were running out the old Z Stalkers to make room for Z Stalkers with the modern flight numbers on the disc. Well in the 6 backups I got, on of the discs is almost like it got an opaque Z look to the disc, there was a style of Z at one point made like this not called just Z but was used for a Special run of Z plastic made for The Ledgestone Open back in the 2000's that you got from other sites as Discraft did not have retail at the time.

 

[Moose33]

I have seen a fair bit of star with bubble streaks as well. I actually have a G* destroyer that has a bunch as well and it definitely is less stable than the G* I have without them.

 

[discerdoo]

Dude at the shop said it has to do with moisture in the mold. The recent Dark Maul PDs seem to all have it but they fly just fine. Not surprised that TeeDubya has made a blanket conclusion on all discs with some bubbles in the rim.

 

[Casey 1988]

My brother had 2 167 gram Champion Destroyers I got him in 2018 for Christmas or Birthday as part of the gift and one was bubbles large big bubbles in the disc and the other nope and had the average dome with flat top I think flies the best in Champion Destroyers. Well his second good one was the Stiff almost Jolly Launcher type of Champion and so both due to plastic type were OS and one with bubbles was a no glide disc. He did the hot car method to the discs and the one with the almost Jolly Launcher Champion Disc became like an average run of Z FLX and the One with Bubbles got stiffer in the rim. He just recycled the discs as they were garbage.

Also in late 2018 to early 2019 I got a bunch of Z Stalkers at 170-172 grams thinking the mold was going oop but they were running out the old Z Stalkers to make room for Z Stalkers with the modern flight numbers on the disc. Well in the 6 backups I got, on of the discs is almost like it got an opaque Z look to the disc, there was a style of Z at one point made like this not called just Z but was used for a Special run of Z plastic made for The Ledgestone Open back in the 2000's that you got from other sites as Discraft did not have retail at the time.

The Champion Destoyer disc was OS but the mold was not bad in grip, the disc came out without the Bubbles affecting the flight despite some big ones in the rim.

 

[MaxFlight]

You would think that the air bubbles would make it less stable and more glide....

 

[wolfhaley]

That's what I was thinking too. I don't have any discs like that though so I have no idea. Innova discs have been all over the place for a while now.

 

[myllys]

I've seen it on lighter weight Ricky Star D's but i dont see it as bubbles in the rim, It's more of a texture on the surface of the disc. They absolutely bomb though. If they'd flown like **** I'd stake a claim for a refund tbh..

 

[Stable]

I noticed this while looking at some new Innova inventory at one of my preferred online retailers. Seeing this on Star & Champion discs 166g+?

WTF Innova? Those should be F2's.

 

[broomerang]

I noticed this while looking at some new Innova inventory at one of my preferred online retailers. Seeing this on Star & Champion discs 166g+?

WTF Innova? Those should be F2's.

Innova has always claimed the bubbles in the rim affect nothing and don't qualify for F2.

Not saying it's right or wrong but that's their stance.

Sometimes bubbles in the rim have been a sign of a great run. 2nd run FD for example.

I have some light 160s SDS from a few years ago that have the textured rims and they are the best flying lighter Destroyers I've ever thrown.

I also have a PD2 that is an F2 (specks in plastic) and has bubbles and it's easily the most OS disc I've ever seen. It's also got the highest PLH of any PD2 I own, including the Luster run.

In the end, I'm not sure the bubbles really affect anything. If someone can compare a bunch of discs with/without bubbles, PLH, etc. Then we might know for sure if they affect the flight.

 

[elmexdela]

ive also seen this on dx

i have some pics on my old phone

terrible quality control by innova per usual yet somehow they continue to find new ways to surprise us

 

[RFrance]

Post #20 and #22 from this old thread https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76402

Bubbles are no big deal, they are in first run CE too its just soild in color so you cant see them.

Its easy to find good blizzards vs bad ones. Bubbles in flight plate and very few in the rim = stable. Bubbles mostly in the rim.... Stay away. The disc needs weight in the rim.

(MVP endorsement? )


And just FYI here's a great thread on injection molding https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131070

 

[Moose33]

Here are two Destroyers I had right beside me; the champ one has what I would dub "acceptable bubbles" doesn't seem to affect flight.

The purple G*, which to be fair is an F2, is definitely less stable and has tons of surface bubbles that I would not say are acceptable. Some stock runs have these that are not F2 and that is a mistake IMO.

 

[tbird888]

Innova has always claimed the bubbles in the rim affect nothing and don't qualify for F2.

This was several years ago (around the time flight numbers started showing up in stamps), but I ordered two Champ plastic discs that came with a single visible bubble in the rim. I reached out to the retailer with pictures to see if they should've been X-Outs (Steve Dodge when he still ran Prime). He forwarded my email to Innova to see what they said. They sent me two new replacements and didn't want the bubbled ones back.

 

[SaROCaM]

My problem with these discs is that they fly like crap. By that I mean they're super overstable and glideless.

Sounds like you are experiencing this with wide rim drivers.

I have Champ Thunderbirds from 3 or so years ago that have a ton of air bubbles. Not blizzard like with texture, but bubbles suspended in the smooth plastic. The plastic is clear, not opaque. Really cool looking discs. They fly like Pro Thunderbirds, quite the opposite of glideless meathooks.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

When I would wander into the local Dick's I'd go through the racks of discs and most of the high speed stuff would have bubbles in the rim. It's a rarer occurrence but I've seen mids with bubbles in the rim, but only in Champ. I've been seeing this for about 2.5-3 years and I noticed it was getting harder to find ones without the bubbles in the rim, whihc was another contributing factor in my switch away from Innova molded discs for my main bag.

I don't think I've ever seen another manufacturer's discs with bubbles in the rim (save the Air and Lite plastics).

 

[Casey 1988]

When I would wander into the local Dick's I'd go through the racks of discs and most of the high speed stuff would have bubbles in the rim. It's a rarer occurrence but I've seen mids with bubbles in the rim, but only in Champ. I've been seeing this for about 2.5-3 years and I noticed it was getting harder to find ones without the bubbles in the rim, whihc was another contributing factor in my switch away from Innova molded discs for my main bag.

I don't think I've ever seen another manufacturer's discs with bubbles in the rim (save the Air and Lite plastics).

I have seen it in Discraft in the 2000's, when everyone was buying Discraft at the time Due to MJ, Greg Barsby yes he was Discraft Sponsored, and Nate Doss as well as Eric Oakley Making it so Z/Z FLX had another problem that some discs that that most of them used like the Buzz and then some random drivers would get this frost to them like an old experiment version of Z Frost Line that did not last but the Z/Z FLX discs woud have this odd texture to the discs, that the Frost Line (later became Big Z) did not have. This occured up until the new flight number discs and might still occur on the disc from Discraft. However this does not affect flight but rather affects the grip of the disc.

 

[Twmccoy]

When I would wander into the local Dick's I'd go through the racks of discs and most of the high speed stuff would have bubbles in the rim. It's a rarer occurrence but I've seen mids with bubbles in the rim, but only in Champ. I've been seeing this for about 2.5-3 years and I noticed it was getting harder to find ones without the bubbles in the rim, whihc was another contributing factor in my switch away from Innova molded discs for my main bag.

I don't think I've ever seen another manufacturer's discs with bubbles in the rim (save the Air and Lite plastics).

Yeah, I'm not liking any of Innova's air bubble stuff, blizzard or otherwise. Lately I've even been seeing star discs with air bubbles. The disc itself has a rough texture and the plastic looks cheap.

I guess Innova doesn't have good plastic anymore. I think Innova's champion plastic peaked in 2008 or later. Good, clear champion plastic that was hard and smooth. Lately their plastic simply isn't as good.

Obviously the stuff they make for tour players is still top notch, but their QC department seems to be letting a lot of subpar regular discs enter the market lately.

 

[Casey 1988]

Yeah, I'm not liking any of Innova's air bubble stuff, blizzard or otherwise. Lately I've even been seeing star discs with air bubbles. The disc itself has a rough texture and the plastic looks cheap.

I guess Innova doesn't have good plastic anymore. I think Innova's champion plastic peaked in 2008 or later. Good, clear champion plastic that was hard and smooth. Lately their plastic simply isn't as good.

Obviously the stuff they make for tour players is still top notch, but their QC department seems to be letting a lot of subpar regular discs enter the market lately.

I do not like the hard/stiff Jolly Launcher is crap to me for Champion but I do like the tiny bit softer Champion plastic that has the nice small flex to it. Star is all over the place in some molds more then others, to the point you have to buy discs in the store or right stores online for the Star to get what you want. The odd thing is the other 3 brands that use Innova manufacturing for true Disc golf discs, they do not have as many issues with the variant of Star or Champion they use for the discs they have made. Not really, a Star Destroyer the tour series model for Ricky W had to be recalled in the max Weight of 175 grams as those were just over the 175 gram max for the discs at 176--177 grams or something like that. Ricky is lucky in that his max weight disc was probably beat in enough with practice and at early season tournaments to the point the disc was light enough to be within the weight limit when the recall happened.

Limited Run discs are still top notch too, as I have gotten those last in 2018 for my brother and unless something like the pop top Star Gator a mistake sold as a limited run, the discs are going to be well made due to low run keeping the too fast high volume production out of the process. Innova could take a look at brands like the 2 side brands Millennium, Infinite Discs, and then the Discmania brand they make the Classic set of the discs for and see that by those brands having to use Innova factories, that the drivers past speed 6 are better by making less runs of discs and possibly larger runs due to how long they need to wait for next batch of discs. I mean Infinite Discs and Discmania's Innova line are better then Innova for discs past 6 speed wing then Innova.

Lastly what was one of the last bran new disc that Innova/Dave D released?, that was the Lion, a disc that overlaps 100% with the Shark 3 both still made that fly the same in glide and flight pattern if you have both discs in the same or very similar type of Champion plastic. The current Star Lion is from what I am reading a tad odd in grip due to the color stamp on the mold.