Another provisional question

[bombmk]

(2) I support a more rigorous test for TDs, Marshals, and anyone designated as an official during tournament play. The current open book test is adequate for players; however, the person adjudicating a player's appeal should be better versed in the rules than the average player.

Technically that would have my full support. Practically, I am not so sure it is a good thing to raise obstacles for people wanting to put the time in to be TD. Different requirements for different levels of tournaments, could be a decent compromise.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Technically that would have my full support. Practically, I am not so sure it is a good thing to raise obstacles for people wanting to put the time in to be TD. Different requirements for different levels of tournaments, could be a decent compromise.

I'm fine with that, as long as you remove the appeals process. Since officials are more qualified than a regular player at that point.

 

[JC17393]

I'm fine with that, as long as you remove the appeals process. Since officials are more qualified than a regular player at that point.

Disagree. A player should always have the right to appeal all the way up to the TD. Have to keep in mind that even intimate and test-proven knowledge of the rule book doesn't mean a person can't misunderstand a course-specific rules issue.

In fact, it's rare that an appeal of a ruling is based on a disagreement of how the rule book applies. It's usually an issue of something unique to the course/tournament (a questionable, ill-defined or misunderstood OB line, for example) that the TD should know better than anyone else involved. As a player, if a ruling goes against me that I feel is incorrect, I want the TD to weigh in even if he ultimately confirms the original ruling. Can't do that if there's no appeals process in place.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Disagree. A player should always have the right to appeal all the way up to the TD. Have to keep in mind that even intimate and test-proven knowledge of the rule book doesn't mean a person can't misunderstand a course-specific rules issue.

In fact, it's rare that an appeal of a ruling is based on a disagreement of how the rule book applies. It's usually an issue of something unique to the course/tournament (a questionable, ill-defined or misunderstood OB line, for example) that the TD should know better than anyone else involved. As a player, if a ruling goes against me that I feel is incorrect, I want the TD to weigh in even if he ultimately confirms the original ruling. Can't do that if there's no appeals process in place.

Disagree, the TD takes the same test as an official in your proposal. The appeal process goes to an official, who should only be allowed to official by the authorization of the TD.

An official is an extension of the TD in a tournament, time to start treating them as such. It should be up top the official to call the TD for any clarification, not the player in those cases.

This is where the PGA gets it right.

 

[JC17393]

Disagree, the TD takes the same test as an official in your proposal. The appeal process goes to an official, who should only be allowed to official by the authorization of the TD.

An official is an extension of the TD in a tournament, time to start treating them as such. It should be up top the official to call the TD for any clarification, not the player in those cases.

This is where the PGA gets it right.

I guess you're misunderstanding me. The test doesn't cover course-specific situations because they're not in the book. So being test-certified doesn't automatically put an official on the same level as the event TD. In other words, there are always going to be things for which the TD is more informed than an official. As a player, I don't ever want an official's ruling to be impossible to supersede. I want the right to be able to ask the TD to rule if I desire it. There's absolutely no reason to deny any player that right. PGA tour players always have the right to appeal a ruling to the tournament committee (for all practical purposes, they are the equivalent of our TDs).

 

[WhiteyBear]

I guess you're misunderstanding me. The test doesn't cover course-specific situations because they're not in the book. So being test-certified doesn't automatically put an official on the same level as the event TD. In other words, there are always going to be things for which the TD is more informed than an official. As a player, I don't ever want an official's ruling to be impossible to supersede. I want the right to be able to ask the TD to rule if I desire it. There's absolutely no reason to deny any player that right.

I'd like to see where an official becomes more like a PGA official. They help setup the course, run the tournament, tee times, basically everything a TD does and more.

TDs already have enough on their plate, let the officials do their job. And if they are inept, they shouldn't be an official in the first place. I would like to see a more professional official program in place.

 

[JC17393]

I'd like to see where an official becomes more like a PGA official. They help setup the course, run the tournament, tee times, basically everything a TD does and more.

TDs already have enough on their plate, let the officials do their job. And if they are inept, they shouldn't be an official in the first place. I would like to see a more professional official program in place.

I'll point out again that even with these officials with elevated responsibilities, the PGA still allows players to appeal an official's ruling to the tournament committee (same as our TDs).

I'm all for getting more and better informed tournament officials at our events, particularly the biggest/richest. But there's no reason that having them should eliminate a player's rights to appeal a ruling to the highest possible official at any given event (i.e. the TD).

 

[WhiteyBear]

I'll point out again that even with these officials with elevated responsibilities, the PGA still allows players to appeal an official's ruling to the tournament committee (same as our TDs).

I'm all for getting more and better informed tournament officials at our events, particularly the biggest/richest. But there's no reason that having them should eliminate a player's rights to appeal a ruling to the highest possible official at any given event (i.e. the TD).

The PGA ref is a part of the TC, and their ruling is to be decided their on the course. It can be reviewed with the committee, but show me in the USGA rules about an appeals process. A pga ref is blatantly placed on a course, by the committee, to observe and enforce the rules of play. Which is, btw, different than what the obligations of a PDGA official are currently.

 

[jjpitt29]

I'd like to see where an official becomes more like a PGA official. They help setup the course, run the tournament, tee times, basically everything a TD does and more.

TDs already have enough on their plate, let the officials do their job. And if they are inept, they shouldn't be an official in the first place. I would like to see a more professional official program in place.

I like this idea a lot. Problem would be where to get such officials or marshalls. Most TD's do so darn much the way it is. Especially with bigger tournaments.

 

[Clue]

Real world...most tournaments this *official* you speak of is usually just some player. I've been an official on and off for nearly 15 years. 1. I'm never making an official ruling for someone in my division which is generally the only situation I'm going to run into. 2. If I happen upon an issue in another division, I'm certainly not opposed to giving my opinion or suggest an applicable rule, but I definitely don't want to make a decision. I very much think that is up to the TD as these situations reflect upon their tournament.

 

[WhiteyBear]

I like this idea a lot. Problem would be where to get such officials or marshalls. Most TD's do so darn much the way it is. Especially with bigger tournaments.

In a fantasy world. You have to pay $500, yearly, to become a certified official from the PDGA.

Be paid $50 for every C tier, $100 for every B tier, $150 for every A tier, and $300 for every NT/Major.

But wait, that would be paying those guys, so in the DG world, that is unethical. TDs and officials should never be paid, ever ever ever. :doh:

 

[jjpitt29]

That's a pretty big fee to pay to be an official. If they are gonna pay that much to get certified, I would think they should get more pay on the back end to make it worth it then.

Do PGA officials get paid etc? Just curious.

 

[WhiteyBear]

That's a pretty big fee to pay to be an official. If they are gonna pay that much to get certified, I would think they should get more pay on the back end to make it worth it then.

Do PGA officials get paid etc? Just curious.

Most are volunteers, but the travelling ones on tour (about 30-35 of them) make a couple hundred grand a year.

The reason I said $500, is because it insures that you are wanting to do the work and know the material. And paying to have an official at every sanctioned tournament would be nice. This means that the TD could be an "official" as well, and get paid that way for their time (as nominal as it sounds).

Personally, I think anything A-Tier and above should have mandatory officials on each course being played. Of course, this is me speaking in fantasy land, or speaking 20-25 years in the future.

 

[mashnut]

Where is that money going to come from? Most disc golfers aren't going to want to see fees go up and/or payouts go down (pretty drastically in the case of a small C tier without any added cash) just to have some guy wandering around on the course telling them what to do.

 

[WhiteyBear]

Where is that money going to come from? Most disc golfers aren't going to want to see fees go up and/or payouts go down (pretty drastically in the case of a small C tier without any added cash) just to have some guy wandering around on the course telling them what to do.

Then make it a nominal inclusion to the entry fee. Or make it like $1/50 cents per person entered.

TDs pay $25 to get sanctioned, and you "have to have" more and more "value" to a players pack to get people to play these days.

The official's job is not to intervene unless it is a behavior issue, or is approached by the group. The PDGA would even make that remark. It's not an officials job to go around and check all the foot faults. It's kind of convoluted like that, but that's how it was even prescribed at this years US Masters.