[Question] Are there other discs like the meteor?

[Dan Ensor]

I haven't tried the Warship or Tursas, but the Truth might as well be called a fairway driver. Squall also.

 

[ThinAir]

Speed =/= Distance

Distance potential, absolutely. Why do the mfgrs put out fast drivers and more recently faster midranges?

 

[tbird888]

Appreciate you keeping it civil in our discussion, and actually answering the question(s).

Funny that you bring up the Impact, because I've had the same experience with it. Powered down it has little glide and just dumps, but straight down, for me anyway.

Someone mentioned trying to flip a Meteor in poor footing and having it hyzer out at the end. Well yeh...don't use a hyzer release trying to flip it under those conditions(poor footing, not much on the throw) and you'll get a different result.

I still can't consider the Meteor fast, but my comparison in that regard is with mids like the Squall, Warship, Truth, and Warrior, all of which I throw or have thrown. Even the Wasp is a faster flyer than any Meteor I've thrown, ESP and Z.

With you mentioning poor footing, low power, and a hyzer release winding up not turning, you're pretty much invalidating the "low speed mid" claim. That's a result of not getting the disc up to its intended cruising speed so it'll turn.

A Comet won't act much different in terms of flight between a bad lie and a tee shot. Its glide will allow it to still travel forward a fair ways, but its slow speed will allow it to not fade early or stronger than it would on a full power throw. The same is true about throwing nose up.

When I mentioned the Meteor had a stronger fade, I wasn't trying to claim it acted like a Firebird by any means. It is just like the Impact...different behavior than its intended flightpath. The last time I really gave the Meteor a chance, I needed a mid to pull off those low speed shots because I couldn't comfortably get a putter out far enough. I couldn't consistently make those low power shots with the Meteor and found the Flying Squirrel could so I bagged it instead.

I've since moved onto putters for that shot because they're more reliable for me at those speeds, but I've kept the Squirrel in the bag over the Meteor in case I happen to lose a putter and need to make that shot work.

Distance potential, absolutely. Why do the mfgrs put out fast drivers and more recently faster midranges?

If you can't get a fast driver (or mid) up to speed, it'll be shorter for you (the royal you, not you specifically) than the ones you can get up to speed. And manufacturers put out faster molds because they sell. People look at the numbers and say, "that guy recommended I try this TeeBird, but it's a speed 7. This Boss is a speed 13. It has to go further, right?"

 

[The Hammer]

Distance potential, absolutely. Why do the mfgrs put out fast drivers and more recently faster midranges?

False. Calling something "faster" makes people like yourself think they go further, which sells discs. Faster discs will generally go further on lower lines, yes. They also tend to penetrate the air with less resistance.

The Valkyrie held the distance record for a long time while there were much faster discs available.

 

[ThinAir]

I haven't tried the Warship or Tursas, but the Truth might as well be called a fairway driver. Squall also.

Of the 3, only the Squall has a flat driver-type rim, the others have more traditional scalloped or convex midrange rims, they are just wider. The Truth is a long mid, it flies like a mid, not a fairway driver. Same with the Warship.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Distance potential, absolutely. Why do the mfgrs put out fast drivers and more recently faster midranges?

Speed could be defined as "The speed at which the disc's flight switches from High speed characteristics to Low speed characteristics."

Which typically means they are more aerodynamic. Which might, incidentally, make them go farther.

 

[ThinAir]

With you mentioning poor footing, low power, and a hyzer release winding up not turning, you're pretty much invalidating the "low speed mid" claim. That's a result of not getting the disc up to its intended cruising speed so it'll turn.

A Comet won't act much different in terms of flight between a bad lie and a tee shot. Its glide will allow it to still travel forward a fair ways, but its slow speed will allow it to not fade early or stronger than it would on a full power throw. The same is true about throwing nose up.

When I mentioned the Meteor had a stronger fade, I wasn't trying to claim it acted like a Firebird by any means. It is just like the Impact...different behavior than its intended flightpath. The last time I really gave the Meteor a chance, I needed a mid to pull off those low speed shots because I couldn't comfortably get a putter out far enough. I couldn't consistently make those low power shots with the Meteor and found the Flying Squirrel could so I bagged it instead.

I've since moved onto putters for that shot because they're more reliable for me at those speeds, but I've kept the Squirrel in the bag over the Meteor in case I happen to lose a putter and need to make that shot work.



If you can't get a fast driver (or mid) up to speed, it'll be shorter for you (the royal you, not you specifically) than the ones you can get up to speed. And manufacturers put out faster molds because they sell. People look at the numbers and say, "that guy recommended I try this TeeBird, but it's a speed 7. This Boss is a speed 13. It has to go further, right?"

IDK, Meteor is pretty understable, hyzering out at lower speeds was not something I experienced with it.

That's why I said "distance potential".

 

[ThinAir]

False. Calling something "faster" makes people like yourself think they go further, which sells discs. Faster discs will generally go further on lower lines, yes. They also tend to penetrate the air with less resistance.

The Valkyrie held the distance record for a long time while there were much faster discs available.

And Wiggins with the Blizzard Wraith?

 

[ThinAir]

Speed could be defined as "The speed at which the disc's flight switches from High speed characteristics to Low speed characteristics."

Which typically means they are more aerodynamic. Which might, incidentally, make them go farther.

And in that regard, it could be said that mids with wider rims and sharper wings will(can) go farther.

Fact: more recent mid releases are characterized by increasingly wider rims, and are faster and have more range(i.e. distance) as a result.

The disc mfgrs don't seem to have any problem with the concept, why is it being argued up the ying-yang here?

 

[Dan Ensor]

Because the proper stability makes a lot more difference as far as how far a given player will throw a disc.

 

[ThinAir]

Dan, that's thrower dependant, irrespective of the disc.

I think at this point it might serve some of the more seriously entrenched doubters to ask the mfgrs why they're coming up with faster and longer mids...and describing them as such.

From Innova alone...

"The Roc3 is a fast, straight Roc that excels at controlled approaches and Mid-Range drives."

"Faster and sleeker than the original Shark, the Shark3 is a stable mid-range designed to attack the fairways."

 

[tbird888]

And in that regard, it could be said that mids with wider rims and sharper wings will(can) go farther.

Fact: more recent mid releases are characterized by increasingly wider rims, and are faster and have more range(i.e. distance) as a result.

The disc mfgrs don't seem to have any problem with the concept, why is it being argued up the ying-yang here?

Range in terms of max distance, yes. Range in terms of usability across a range of distances, no.

This goes back to the Comet vs the Meteor. You can use a Comet when a lot of people will use a putter, and it'll behave very close to a distance throw. The Meteor will act differently in those two situations but isn't going to fly much further than the Comet. One is fast, and one is slow. One gives up a little distance to be consistently useful in more distance ranges, and the other is designed mainly for being thrown with power.

In building a bag, I like fewer molds that are versatile enough to cover a lot of shots. I would take the Comet 100% of the time in this example because I don't have much need for something that only does one thing really well.

 

[ThinAir]

Range in terms of max distance, yes. Range in terms of usability across a range of distances, no.

This goes back to the Comet vs the Meteor. You can use a Comet when a lot of people will use a putter, and it'll behave very close to a distance throw. The Meteor will act differently in those two situations but isn't going to fly much further than the Comet. One is fast, and one is slow. One gives up a little distance to be consistently useful in more distance ranges, and the other is designed mainly for being thrown with power.

In building a bag, I like fewer molds that are versatile enough to cover a lot of shots. I would take the Comet 100% of the time in this example because I don't have much need for something that only does one thing really well.

Good points, all. No argument there.

 

[ian.]

 

[ThinAir]

tbird, I want to run something by you. You seem very knowledgable, and also a reasonable guy. You can put it in your pipe and smoke it, see what you think....

As drivers get faster and longer, the use of fairway drivers, in the "approach role" anyway, has been diminished. Your second shot will be a mid more often than not. But, older, slower, and yes shorter mids can't fill the gap. This is why mfgrs are coming out with faster and longer mids, increasing their effective range. They know the trend, and where their bread is buttered.

Newer fairway drivers are also getting "longer" by increasing the speed, mainly through wider rims. Most new fairway drivers are up to 1.8cm-1.9cm rim width. Some like the Undertow and Escape are even 2.0cm. Gone are the days of Leopard like 1.6cm rims, with few exceptions.

Why? Because the trend is towards fairway drivers capable of going farther, marketed to beginners or players with low arm speed, to get them over the speed stability issue of distance drivers, but still give them greater distance. Understable designs can't do it for them alone, because they still face the same issues regarding wind, proper form, etc.

You see this trend with mids and fairway drivers, especially Lat 64, Westside, and DD. IMO, Innova and Discraft better get on the ball to cover new gaps now left esposed where their older mids and fairway drivers are concerned. Innova seems to be, with the Roc3 and Shark3, and the new higher speed rated Teebird and TL variants. Discraft came out with the Mantis, a high glide beginner friendly fairway driver.

If in doubt(not you specifically), TALK to the mfgrs. Do a little research on their new molds and also what's in the pipeline. The game is changing...longer drivers, longer fairway drivers, longer mids. Probably not a good thing, but it's like the old horsepower battles between the muscle car mfgrs of years past...the ante keeps getting upped.

 

[ian.]

tbird You can put it in your pipe and smoke it, see what you think....

 

[The Hammer]

tbird, I want to run something by you. You seem very knowledgable, and also a reasonable guy. You can put it in your pipe and smoke it, see what you think....

As drivers get faster and longer, the use of fairway drivers, in the "approach role" anyway, has been diminished. Your second shot will be a mid more often than not. But, older, slower, and yes shorter mids can't fill the gap. This is why mfgrs are coming out with faster and longer mids, increasing their effective range. They know the trend, and where their bread is buttered.

Newer fairway drivers are also getting "longer" by increasing the speed, mainly through wider rims. Most new fairway drivers are up to 1.8cm-1.9cm rim width. Some like the Undertow and Escape are even 2.0cm. Gone are the days of Leopard like 1.6cm rims, with few exceptions.

Why? Because the trend is towards fairway drivers capable of going farther, marketed to beginners or players with low arm speed, to get them over the speed stability issue of distance drivers, but still give them greater distance. Understable designs can't do it for them alone, because they still face the same issues regarding wind, proper form, etc.

You see this trend with mids and fairway drivers, especially Lat 64, Westside, and DD. IMO, Innova and Discraft better get on the ball to cover new gaps now left esposed where their older mids and fairway drivers are concerned. Innova seems to be, with the Roc3 and Shark3, and the new higher speed rated Teebird and TL variants. Discraft came out with the Mantis, a high glide beginner friendly fairway driver.

If in doubt(not you specifically), TALK to the mfgrs. Do a little research on their new molds and also what's in the pipeline. The game is changing...longer drivers, longer fairway drivers, longer mids. Probably not a good thing, but it's like the old horsepower battles between the muscle car mfgrs of years past...the ante keeps getting upped.

So now gaps are appearing in Innova's lineup because other manufacturers are making fast fairways? You realize that Innova has been doing that for a decade or more (ex. Firebird, Valk, Orc, Viking, etc)? This is nothing new. Faster mids aren't anything new either.

I don't see any gaps what-so-ever. If anything they have been trying to fill gaps that don't exist for a long time. Apparently new golfers haven't figured out that they can power up or down on their discs to achieve different ranges. They feel the need to carry 90 discs now. Absurd.

 

[bradharris]

ThinAir, you're looking at it backwards. It's not that fairway drivers are somehow going faster and flying longer. It's that manufacturers are just classifying faster, longer discs as fairway drivers. It's all just marketing.

There was a time not too long ago when discraft classified it's lineup as things like: Midrange Driver, Distance Driver, Extra Long Distance Driver, Maximum Distance Driver.

So even the Buzzz and Meteor had "Driver" in the name.

The naming conventions have changed, but the discs have not.

 

[The Hammer]

Innova's newest high speed fairway driver technology:

 

[Vorpaljesus]

tbird, I want to run something by you. You seem very knowledgable, and also a reasonable guy. You can put it in your pipe and smoke it, see what you think....

As drivers get faster and longer, the use of fairway drivers, in the "approach role" anyway, has been diminished. Your second shot will be a mid more often than not. But, older, slower, and yes shorter mids can't fill the gap. This is why mfgrs are coming out with faster and longer mids, increasing their effective range. They know the trend, and where their bread is buttered.

Newer fairway drivers are also getting "longer" by increasing the speed, mainly through wider rims. Most new fairway drivers are up to 1.8cm-1.9cm rim width. Some like the Undertow and Escape are even 2.0cm. Gone are the days of Leopard like 1.6cm rims, with few exceptions.

Why? Because the trend is towards fairway drivers capable of going farther, marketed to beginners or players with low arm speed, to get them over the speed stability issue of distance drivers, but still give them greater distance. Understable designs can't do it for them alone, because they still face the same issues regarding wind, proper form, etc.

You see this trend with mids and fairway drivers, especially Lat 64, Westside, and DD. IMO, Innova and Discraft better get on the ball to cover new gaps now left esposed where their older mids and fairway drivers are concerned. Innova seems to be, with the Roc3 and Shark3, and the new higher speed rated Teebird and TL variants. Discraft came out with the Mantis, a high glide beginner friendly fairway driver.

If in doubt(not you specifically), TALK to the mfgrs. Do a little research on their new molds and also what's in the pipeline. The game is changing...longer drivers, longer fairway drivers, longer mids. Probably not a good thing, but it's like the old horsepower battles between the muscle car mfgrs of years past...the ante keeps getting upped.

Nope. So much nope