Backhand Form Check - I've tasted the nectar

[DrBone]

Hi All,

https://youtu.be/l26HeksQ2Tk

Been playing for a while but only recently getting serious and working on my form. Watched a lot of SW22 and Loopghost videos and tried to incorporate the learnings. My max distance throws are usually between 250 and 300 without a big difference between mids and fairways. I primarily throw Mako3s and Leopard (classic and 3's).

What I've been focusing on most is the 'whip in whip out' of my arm and trying to get the heavy feeling of the disc. I had it dialed in about a week ago and was ripping mids and putters close to 300' with very little effort but I haven't been able to recapture the glory again.

Looking for any tips you might have, I'll be back in the field this weekend to incorporate suggestions. Some things I've already noticed are my swoopy arm during the swing and how my shoulders seem to tilt up (left shoulder higher than right shoulder) which I suspect contributes to nose up and stalls. I'm also not sure how much I'm actually turning my hips? It feeeeells like I'm turning them back but in the videos it is not very apparent and I might just be swiveling at the shoulders during the reach back.

The throws are all in slow mo thanks to a quick of transferring videos but I'll figure out how to get normal speed ones next time.


Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Posture, posture, posture. Need to stop bending your knees and getting into S posture or anterior pelvic tilt with spine extended. Bend at the hips, not the knees(knees will bend automatically). Engage your abs and glutes tucking your pelvis underneath you into more athletic and relaxed stacked posture with the spine in flexion and shoulders hanging forward.

2. Be a lumberjack, not a surgeon. Do not try and manipulate the disc backswing into a spot, let is swing back and get your body out of the way. You reachback very wide out to the side and never really get your wrist/disc lagged inward behind your elbow, or your elbow leading out in front and loading everything up into the power pocket to eject back out. If you do the hammer swing or toss drills, you should not be manipulating the hammer and trying to keep it out wide, you should need to turn your body further back out of the way to allow the hammer to go back to where it wants and your body still has control to send it back forward.

Scrap the x-step and work on your fundamental throwing stance. Use a fan/pinch grip when doing non-throwing drills.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

 

[DrBone]

Thanks! I'm looking forward to trying out these changes tomorrow. It is dark here but I went outside with a disc and a hammer think I felt some things differently. I noticed when swinging the hammer (and to a lesser extent a disc) that when I was keeping my weight centered between my legs more and bracing against the front foot during the swing that I felt a twisting pressure in my front knee. If I focused on getting the weight to my heel it went away. Not sure if that is expected or not.

In any case I'll get some video tomorrow and see how things are looking. My posture looks so gross now that you've pointed it out!

 

[sidewinder22]

I noticed when swinging the hammer (and to a lesser extent a disc) that when I was keeping my weight centered between my legs more and bracing against the front foot during the swing that I felt a twisting pressure in my front knee. If I focused on getting the weight to my heel it went away. Not sure if that is expected or not.

Yep.

 

[DrBone]

Alright played a round and took some video afterwards today. I brought the hammer with me and tried to really focus on my posture. I realized how HARD it is to stay balanced when moving my weight back and forth between my legs, especially in a closed stance. I think this is a good sign as I'm moving my weight more efficiently and I definitely feel my hips acting more.

I finally started feeling the push from the instep of my rear leg too. This is a much different way of throwing than I've done before, I'm excited to unlock the real power here.

For my throwing arm, I was trying to focus on leaving it pretty limp and using my hips and torso to pull it through, it felt quite odd and I didn't feel like I was able to control the nose angle well but I certainly felt more like a lumberjack. Is the disc supposed to get into the power pocket from the weight shift (meaning a shift my weight and my shoulder moves forward and thus bends the elbow) and then the twisting momentum unfurls the arm from there?


Bit of a wall of text there but here are the goods. I included some hammer swings and throws at the end as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fuVKL6fHg

 

[DrBone]

not sure why that embedded video is either not playing or linking to the Battering Ram video. My swings should be in the link I listed which I will do again here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8fuVKL6fHg

 

[DrBone]

I think my next session is going to be focusing on the double dragon drill. I think that video has answers to a lot of my questions now that I've got more of my lower body involved.

I notice when I'm hammer swinging or replicating the side to side weight shift I'm dipping when my weight is centered and then rising up and on either side. I don't see anyone doing that in such an obvious way when throwing or drills.

(trying to help myself out here ��)

 

[txmxer]

Most might not notice this, but you are throwing with the wrong hand.



There is something unusual about what you are doing. The way you walk up, x-step, I was expecting your throw to be 30-45 degrees right of where you actually threw it.

I think that means you are missing out on some of the torque and ultimately speed you could transfer to the disc.

If different speed discs give you about the same distance it is typically nose up.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are too open to the target, rotating before shifting. Need to shift more backwards to target.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

Your swing is cutting in across your stance \, instead of swinging out wide /.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132910

 

[DrBone]

Did a bit more work today, tried to focus on getting the release point our wider in the "4 o' clock position". Trying to hit this made me realize how incredibly early I am with all of my lower body movements. I feel like the actual arm movement is such a small part of the overall motion and SO MUCH happens before the arm start to come into play.

I took video but it wasn't particularly interesting and I don't have time to edit it. A few stills which I'm going off of for next time:

Seeing my front heel still off the ground at this point when it should have received the weight transfer before my arm started coming forward. This seems like a prrreeetttyy big issue I'm going to prioritize.

Compared to the last session I do think I got my release point in a better spot and I was swinging out wide a bit better. One thing I noticed I do is that when my arm starts to move forward it actually pulls in a closer/behind my body a bit. So despite reaching back wide I end up moving the arm in and still getting my body in the way a bit. Sneaky muscles!


Overall I'm having the wonderful and discouraging realization that my form is quite far from where I want it to be and that I've been strong arming everything up until now (and still now!). But I am excited to make some progress and capture that feeling of a well thrown disc!

I'll be back out there soon and come back with what happens!

 

[DrBone]

Oh yes txmxer - I think that first image in my last post really illustrates the wrong hand problem you mentioned! Never noticed that before! I have been working on some nose up issues as well which were for sure an issue as you guessed.

 

[DrBone]

Got back in the field today and had some insight (though no magic improvements). Details below!

https://youtu.be/WD_Mdf3tW1I


I was trying to focus on having a real noodle arm and whipping it through with my lower body. Lots of inspiration from this thread: https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139128

I felt I was noodle arming pretty well but my shoulders were opening too much and that is when I realized I needed to start my lower body shift even earlier. In my mind I'm thinking of two phases to the throw: the "shift" and the "whip".

I think of the whip as the uncurling of the arm and ejection of the disc. The shift is the weight shift from back to front. If the whip starts at the same time the shift starts then the shift doesn't benefit the whip at all. This is where my form started. I was spinning my hips and shoulders but it was all happening too late and not adding anything to the throw.

SO I figured that if I could delay the time between the shift starting and the whip starting I would be able to keep my shoulders closed and have a better whip action. That is when I FINALLY started to actually understand the shift. By turning back more and leading the shift with my butt I could create some lag between when my weight shifted and when my shoulders started to come around (and therefore get the release point to occur with a more closed shoulder).

here you can see that I've got all my weight on my front foot and my back is still to the target. This is a new position for my throws:

I think there are new problems to solve as my rear foot is coming off the ground quite early instead of pushing into my lead leg (and my left arm is all wily nily out there and trying to rotate)

This lead to some very different feeling throws and a few that felt really good. I'm starting to feel the ability to "push back" with my front foot in order to propel the whip. However I feel like I'm bbaarrreeelly loading my front leg and don't have much to resist with right now.

Another issue that I want to work on is making sure my arm angles are correct. It doesn't feel (or look) like my arm is getting in that 90 degree position and it doesn't really feel like my arm is fully whipping. It actually feels more like rounding or an ultimate throw still.

The weight shift was a big change for me, I was able to get a sort of 'falling' feeling going into my lead leg and it really felt like I was leading with my butt and hips and able to put weight into that front heel. Excited to work on that more. I also tried some double dragon drill which I will do more of. That **** is hard - it was really difficult to maintain my balance which leads me to believe there is lots to gain there!

Happy Thanksgiving - I'll be back in the field before long!

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking good in general. You are over turning away with your head and rear arm going behind your back. Want to keep your head more forward looking at your disc and rear arm more forward in front of your body/chest.

 

[DrBone]

Thanks - I suspected I was overturning, trying it out at home and keeping my head more centered makes me feel more balanced and upright. My hips actually feel a little sore which really tells me that I'm finally engaging them AND that I haven't been doing so ever before. Hope I can keep the momentum going before it gets too cold out. I'll be back with more updates before long.

 

[DrBone]

Dear Diary,

Haven't done any filming worth posting recently but have thrown almost everyday and actually played a round on Sunday. It was possibly my best round ever! I really mangled it with a quadruple then triple bogey back to back but my throws were feeling very good and most interestingly I felt I was able to get more power on my putts. I was much more aware of how my weight was distributed through my feet, my balance and my momentum.

On Friday and Saturday I focused on the closed shoulder snap drill. I realized that I was never NOT trying to crank out max distance shots and this forced me to slow down and focus more. I started just throwing into fence from 10 feet away and slowly backed up while trying to still hit the fence with a similar velocity. This let me slowly work more of my body into the throw. It also is a lot easier on my hips as all my previous field work I was slamming my weight back and forth through my heels. It is nice to slow down and try to feel the proper form with a more controllable amount of weight and momentum. Hoowwwwever, I did just watch the Shaolin Lumberjack video and seeing that dude throw his whole body weight into that fist strike is inspiring and I'm for sure going to try and rip some max distance shots with that in my head.

It is pretty impressive how much power you can get with just a small reach back and proper un-hinging release. I found the 'swing thought' of throwing the back of the disc to be helpful. It is hard to be consistent though, so lots of room for improvement during my continued practice!

 

[lostDoughnut]

i see a few of the older videos where u had the hammer and you were swaying back and forth. the elephant walk drill came to mind and that really helped my body sync up when going from backswing to downswing. (also when the disc is slung forward your body leans backwards, swinging a heavy item will help get this feeling as shown in the videos)



this will start at a certain timestamp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uWigK12xNY&t=358s

i used an old kitty litter tub and filled it with water. for myself the item i swung had to be heavy for my muscle to figure it out

 

[lostDoughnut]

this thread talks about the elephant walk

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[DrBone]

Oh nice thanks! I think that is a great idea, I felt some things with the hammer but upping the weight might accentuate it and make it a bit more obvious. I'll try it out - it seems to me like an easier more beginner friendly version of the double dragon drill.

One thing I notice when trying the closed shoulder snap drill is that to get my elbow up and my arm in what I *think* is a good position for a flatish throw I find myself engaging my tricep. If I'm trying to noodle arm and swing through using my body not arm should I expect to still use the tricep in the same way? Struggling a bit with the idea of keeping the arm relaxed but still keeping proper shoulder/elbow angles I think

 

[azplaya25]

Oh nice thanks! I think that is a great idea, I felt some things with the hammer but upping the weight might accentuate it and make it a bit more obvious. I'll try it out - it seems to me like an easier more beginner friendly version of the double dragon drill.

One thing I notice when trying the closed shoulder snap drill is that to get my elbow up and my arm in what I *think* is a good position for a flatish throw I find myself engaging my tricep. If I'm trying to noodle arm and swing through using my body not arm should I expect to still use the tricep in the same way? Struggling a bit with the idea of keeping the arm relaxed but still keeping proper shoulder/elbow angles I think

You're whole body will be slinging the disc, you don't want to feel like one specific muscle is engaged or you are likely strong arming. I don't like the idea of starting the throw from the closed shoulder snap position. SW22 talks about it in the figure 8 video, your kind of starting from a position that doesn't exist in the swing.
Try what he says in that video…just let your arm hang totally loose, then play around with using your body to get the disc/hammer in the power pocket position without using a single muscle in your arm, like the arm/disc is a ball and string you are swinging with you body.

https://youtu.be/muz3IBPX58k

 

[lostDoughnut]

Oh nice thanks! I think that is a great idea, I felt some things with the hammer but upping the weight might accentuate it and make it a bit more obvious. I'll try it out - it seems to me like an easier more beginner friendly version of the double dragon drill.

haha, i laughed out loud when you mentioned the double dragon drill . that was the last and current item that i was/am working on. for me its an expert level movement ( i might be also making it harder than it should be :wall: )

if you try the double dragon drill you might run into issues that i had (below is my thread where i am working on that drill and it might give some insight into familiar issues)
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140181&page=2

One thing I notice when trying the closed shoulder snap drill is that to get my elbow up and my arm in what I *think* is a good position for a flatish throw I find myself engaging my tricep. If I'm trying to noodle arm and swing through using my body not arm should I expect to still use the tricep in the same way? Struggling a bit with the idea of keeping the arm relaxed but still keeping proper shoulder/elbow angles I think

im in the same boat too regarding keeping my elbow up. my elbow wants to not stay up. its something that i was not aware of before and now im simply making sure during my backswing my arm/elbow stays high and im going slower during the downswing to hopefully update my muscle memory. you can see my issue in the link to my form thread too (link to said post is below)
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3761549&postcount=29