Backhand Form Check - I've tasted the nectar

[DrBone]

Additional notes - most of my throws in this session ended up hitting the turf before their flight ended. Things were on a downward trajectory. I'm thinking since I was trying so hard to get the weight on my front foot I may have been tipping forward more (i think the throw I have on video was not a turfed throw and actually ended up being an almost griplocky anhyzer).

The other thought I have is that I've been focusing a LOT on getting nose down in my grip. If getting my weight forward properly helps with the nose down then maybe I'm actually getting too nose down with the combination between forward weight and extreme nose down grip. Will try to test this out in the field next session.

 

[sidewinder22]

Starting the backswing you are bending your front knee and turning it and your weight pressure is going into your toes. I don't really bend the front knee or turn it in the backswing, I shift back deeper(buttwipe or reverse elephant walk) into the heel so the weight pressure moves in a circle. The front knee stays out of the way of the backswing by not bending it. It does flex a little in transition forward.

Let your rear heel come down to the ground, so the pressure moves from rear toes to heel in a circle back to the front foot. You are keeping your pressure in your toes and getting off balance, instead of moving the pressure around in the feet and giving you more stability/leverage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IFO7J3AV5Y#t=5m30s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[DrBone]

I see what you mean. I just threw a few out before sunset and COULD NOT figure out how to not turn my knee. But back home I may have figured it out:

Before I was feeling my front hip turn back but by thinking more about moving my rear hip towards the target I think I can get what you mean.

In this video I do my old swing first and then my new approach. Did it seem like the right track?

https://youtu.be/LdArRJ3s1us

 

[sidewinder22]

Well you got it deeper, but never shifted back away.

Looks like you are setup more on the rear foot than the front foot, so your pelvis/CoG never shifts away from target before going targetward. I think your rear foot is too perpendicular to target and restricting your backswing, need to flare it out pointed back away - note how my rear knee is almost pointed straight back away from target in pic ^ almost 90 degrees more than yours.

Pitching is more rear foot perpendicular, but backhand one leg drill is just turning the whole stance closed almost 90 degrees and getting it more out of the way to open up the backswing. In a standstill or 1 step throw the rear foot should be closer to 45 degrees from perpendicular.

 

[DrBone]

Oh yeah - turning my rear foot less perpendicular changes things quite a bit. For some reason I was purposely trying to keep that rear foot at 90 degrees.

Next step to take out to the field!

 

[DrBone]

Two throws from field work yesterday. Was trying to focus on getting a weight shift and slowing down everything leading up to the power pocket as well as continuing to avoid strong arming.

These were two of the better throws. I tried to utilize the hershyzer and doorframe drills to feel the weight on my back foot more. Something different today was that I felt the lower body moving almost fully laterally compared to before I realized I was doing a bit of rotation or left to right movement. I think subconsciously trying to 'spin'.

In the first throw I end up falling backwards after the follow through - I think I need to get my CoG a little further out from my body. Interestingly this was one of the best throws of the session by distance and the only one I tipped back like that.

I tried to avoid doing the front knee pointing back thing I was doing before as well. Somewhat successful there and I definitely feel the difference when I do it correctly.

It doesn't seem like I'm transferring much weight or power still. My rear leg isn't coming crashing into my front and I don't get much compression on the front leg.

I had a single throw which I felt like I bench pressed the disc out from my chest and my chest felt concave for a moment which felt incredibly powerful but unfortunately was not on video.




(throwing downhill)

 

[sidewinder22]

Make your arm swing pull your body. Forget about swing plane or holding a disc.

 

[DrBone]

Taking notes here for myself:
1:41 - lot of players using the left (rear) arm to rotate back into the backswing which is totally counterproductive

definitely doing that:

3:00ish - the high five finish. My follow through is on a flat plane rather than finishing high

going to go through the rest later but this is the perfect video. Looking at my vids now I see how FLAT my swing is. I've been practicing whipping my arm forward on the flat plane rather than more of the tilted twirl star burst. This is super helpful. A much bigger concept to work on that things I was thinking about!

 

[lostDoughnut]

It doesn't seem like I'm transferring much weight or power still. My rear leg isn't coming crashing into my front and I don't get much compression on the front leg.

weight transfer and the compression took a good while for me to understand, and im sure i still have room to practice still. haha . hopefully im on the same page and this explanation pertains to that

the elephant drill and a thread about late acceleration were things that had worked for myself (there were other things too but those two are the ones i remember the most). i basically slowed down my throw into two very exaugurated speeds. basically everything up into the disc got pulled into my chest was done at a very very very slow speed (since i was going so slow i had to pull the disc into my chest using my arm vs letting it happen more naturally from the stop in momentum). and then once the disc got into my chest i put on the beans. what i believe that helped me was since i slowed down my movements i was able to focus on the weight shift. where as before when i tried to move in 1 speed, even though i was doing a standstill, it was still too much for my brain to process. the late acceleration also helped because it delayed my downswing so much that i started to get a feeling of the weight being on my plant leg. once i had that feeling reading other comments/threads started to make more sense.

thread about late acceleration

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109677

a video i made to remind myself about the two speeds to help me get that feeling


a video that clicked with me . i cant recall which thread i found it but i bookmarked the video
https://youtu.be/ypfx-L8qz08?t=693
at the 12 min marker the example of what i wanted to show is over with. the entire video is a good watch

another good example
https://youtu.be/ypfx-L8qz08?t=651

from my understanding when trying to figure this out at first. all i needed was just to pick up my plant leg. then fall a little towards the basket doing the 'berry sanders cut back'. then slam my plant foot on the ground (this is not a gentle movement but slamming with your weight behind it) as if i want to pop a balloon. once i had that feeling i was able to work on it.

hopefully some of this makes sense:thmbup:

 

[DrBone]

Got back in the field yesterday and tried to focus on my swing plane and the 'high five' finish:



Flight on this throw was a pretty fast flip to flat shot but not only below-average to average distance. It came out quite low.

Some things I notice:

• I'm vveerrry upright and stiff
• Still swinging that trail arm out wide in the reach back
• My elbow is bending early, I'm missing the stage where my weight and body shift forward with a straight arm
• Disc never really gets close to the body
• I did have a better swing plane but it was nowhere near what some of the examples I was watching were.

When I take practice swings my arm goes in a much higher 'high five' position, but it seems when I'm throwing it really wants to try to stay flat.

Got some other footage as well:

Rear view:



Another side view:


This one I really tried to let my arm swing free and whip me around which was successful. This was one of the better throws of the session. I was trying to focus on 'doorframing' which kept me in a more athletic feeling pose at the beginning. However I see that I start to rise up to a more stiff posture when the disc starts to enter my body.


And then at the end I was just letting some rip for fun and ended up with this:


This was a putter (Warden) and outdrove the midranges I had thrown by over ten feet. I go a little out of frame at the end but visually I think this was the best looking throw and yet I'm STILL throwing on a very flat plane.


I brought a hammer as well and tried to feel the non-flat swing plane and ceptripetal pump as well as some elephant walk drills:


Overall it was a decent session and I was happy to get out in the winter. My discipline was much better, I was checking the video after each throw (at first at least) instead of just throwing disc after disc. I'll continue to focus on the swing plane when I get out next time. I also am trying to stop my head from turning so far back but it still creeps back in!

 

[sidewinder22]

Keep your body/shoulders closed to target when you address the swing forward. You open way up and have to swing back around yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5xfv9jPqZs#t=8m26s

Toss the hammer and/or swing it around like a windmill.

 

[DrBone]

Thanks Sidewinder - one thing I'm a little confused on is how one moves from the hammer windmill to the toss. Is the windmill just for getting 'interial burst' sensation? Do you achieve the swing plane difference (from vertical windmill to more horizontal) just from body positioning?


Since it is too cold to toss I've just been analyzing my videos. Came up with these comparisons to Will S (because this video is so amazing). Going to use these to refresh my memory when I get back out in the field. I also need to remember to try to get my camera angles a bit closer to what reference videos use!

 

[sidewinder22]

The spiral is always on a tilted axis somewhat due to the swing having an unbalanced weight to it and gravity. A true horizontal swing does not exist, at least not efficiently. The more horizontal you swing, the less efficient the swing becomes. To throw something far it needs somewhat of an upward launch, a disc is not much different than launching a football or hammer, other than it has a very sensitive nose and can be thrown downward with the nose up and still fly, just inefficiently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04BGqmuaT8g#t=4m25s

 

[DrBone]

To throw something far it needs somewhat of an upward launch, a disc is not much different than launching a football or hammer

Oh man for some reason that just clicked with me. When I was doing the windmill with a disc or hammer I could get the feeling for the interial burst going UP like this:


But I felt that wasn't correct for a disc because I want it to go 'out', that is why in my hammer swing in the video I'm doing more of a horizontal swing. Depending on when I pump I could feel where the momentum wanted to take the disc/hammer. I'll have to play with that when I get back out there.

 

[DrBone]

Got in the field for like 10 quick throws today. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Not focusing on making the disc go *out* and embracing the upwards trajectory of the natural non-flat swing plane was a very different feeling and made a very big difference. Don't have a good feel for distances but I'm confident I cleared 300 a few times with mid-range and leopard and once of them would have kept going but for slamming into a fence at the end of the field.

Along with not trying to keep things flat I was also focusing on the 'inside swing' and not bringing the disc out so wide and over my toes. Just analyzed the video and have my notes below. Probably won't be back out there if this east coast storm delivers the snow it is predicted to but not being afraid of throwing UP is a huuuggee game changer.

Videos - the ones from the rear were my first sets of throws. The side views were the noticeably better throws, after one I even audibly said "wow" to myself right after release.

Side View



Rear View



Power Pocket vs Will S

Release vs Will S

Improvements from last time:

Backswing:

Powerpocket:

Pre-release (man my previous form was ugly!)
The disc angle and plane is so different between these two

Follow through (no high five on this throw)

 

[sidewinder22]

For some reason your vids freeze after 5 seconds but the audio still plays, but that doesn't really matter since we can see at least a throw each.

I think you are trying to twist your hips too much, you send your rear hip across your center and early extend/jump and front foot gets jerked off the ground while your head is still back. Note how Drew and I are looking directly at the hit/disc and centered on front leg with rear leg countering behind and pivot into the finish.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[DrBone]

Weird about the videos - they were only one throw each so all the important parts are there.

As for your analysis - I see what you mean. Comparing to Will S again:

From his peak reachback to just past the power pocket his hip don't really move side to side and stay within his frame:

Compare to mine:
The rear hip has moved to the left and shifted my CoG further over my toes:

Resulting in that foot hop you called out:
The way the entirety of my weight is on my toe there makes it seem like I am almost falling over forward because of the hip moving my CoG and lack of rear leg counter balance.

Just messing around I think that when I incorporated the pump/windmill I was pushing more off the toes of my front foot to do so. This leads to the front hip going back (or to the right in a rear view image) more which then makes the rear hip twist forward. I can feel that keeping my weight over the middle of my foot when doing the pump let's me keep it more of a lateral motion and less of a twist.

Feels good to have made some noticeable progress though!

 

[DrBone]

It's finally frolfin' season again!

Played a few round recently and got some video to analyze this weekend. Excited to get back out there and make some progress!

Here is the video:


And here is a playlist with a few more throws and slo-mo (includes rear views)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUZkI_Xbjv0&list=PLSrYtKCFD27yAQCls9in9maz-uRjtn3I5&index=1


Some of my observations and items to work on:

Improvements since last season:
* I'm completing the weight transfer to the front leg before the rest of the swing continues. This is a big improvement and it feels like I am waiting really long before the upper body and arm come through. Those comments in the 'free floating arm moment' thread finally makes sense.

* Head turn / placement seems better? At least different from last season, I'm able to throw straighter and aren't turning so far away from the target like I was previously.

(this is all how it feels to me, whether it actually is happening is always a question :gross: )

Improvements to be made:
* My throwing shoulder is all jacked up and raised during the throw. Should have level shoulders instead. <--- main thing I want to fix, I feel it is related to lack of high finish

* High-five follow through. It feels like I'm finishing really high but the video evidence does not confirm this

* Rear foot is not anywhere near perpendicular to the target, gotta fix that

* Off arm swim move. Just moving my body around I can really feel how the swim move forms the base of the whip and really sets up the arm to catapult forward. I was trying to incorporate it and felt like I was a little bit but again the video evidence shows otherwise. I'm swimming way too late most of the time and the motion is barely noticeable on film.

 

[sidewinder22]

Work on just swinging your hanging left shoulder back and forth like Reciprocating Dingle Arm.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134415

 

[DrBone]

The ol' dingle arm!



Just did these real quick and could feel a difference. I still jammed up my shoulder a little when actually throwing though. Need to go watch the dingle arm video again and do some more experiments.

Thanks!