Big Questions after "Fundamentals of"

[timothy42b]

Highest percentage of power to disc comes from horizontal abduction of upper arm.

Assuming that's the case. there are two obvious questions.

Does the horizontal abduction component require reasonably correct kinetic chain as a necessary condition?

How do you learn and practice the abduction, and to what extent is it (or should it be) deliberate?

And a less obvious one maybe, is it related to the "disc pivot" or the hit ideas?

I can amplify what I mean if those aren't clear.

 

[timothy42b]

Quoting sidewinder quoting blake-t:

blake_t: these people will have a set of drills to get them to a certain baseline, which is a consistent 350-410' line drive power with modern technology.

the reason i am making this stipulation is because many of the recommendations given so far will work for someone throwing below 350', but are not really applicable to those who are throwing that far or farther.

i have had approximately a 1% success rate with teaching people how to truly "hit it." more like 4% if you consider "hitting some of it" (some of it = 430-450' with a wraith/destroyer).

1% is pretty low. It suggests either the task is extremely difficult, or misunderstood. Among other possibilities.

 

[CoachChris]

Assuming that's the case. there are two obvious questions.

Does the horizontal abduction component require reasonably correct kinetic chain as a necessary condition?

How do you learn and practice the abduction, and to what extent is it (or should it be) deliberate?

And a less obvious one maybe, is it related to the "disc pivot" or the hit ideas?

I can amplify what I mean if those aren't clear.

It is important to think of horizontal abduction (picture elbowing a door) in the context of the entire motion of a throw. To think about it in relation to a kinetic chain would be something like a baseball pitch. The ground, and the bigger muscle groups play a significant role in transporting the baseball and hand into the release but you better be able to move your arm quickly.

In a DG throw, getting in to a deep power pocket is about the timing of moving your upper arm into positionbefore the rotational force of your shoulders prematurely extend your elbow. Practice that timing from the top down. Initially with standstills and just moving upper arm. (It takes a couple of weeks of deliberate practice) and then slowly adding more shoulder rotation and momentum. If properly done it will feel that it takes less effort to throw because of the reduced inertia of the deeper power pocket. Don't expect it to happen over night.

Hope this helps. I can expand on it if it doesn't make sense.

What are your questions regarding disc pivot?

 

[Sard0nyx]

It is important to think of horizontal abduction (picture elbowing a door) in the context of the entire motion of a throw. To think about it in relation to a kinetic chain would be something like a baseball pitch. The ground, and the bigger muscle groups play a significant role in transporting the baseball and hand into the release but you better be able to move your arm quickly.

In a DG throw, getting in to a deep power pocket is about the timing of moving your upper arm into positionbefore the rotational force of your shoulders prematurely extend your elbow. Practice that timing from the top down. Initially with standstills and just moving upper arm. (It takes a couple of weeks of deliberate practice) and then slowly adding more shoulder rotation and momentum. If properly done it will feel that it takes less effort to throw because of the reduced inertia of the deeper power pocket. Don't expect it to happen over night.

Hope this helps. I can expand on it if it doesn't make sense.

What are your questions regarding disc pivot?

Can you talk more about bracing and how to transfer that force to the upper arm to power the horizontal abduction? I do notice more power with deep pocket, but I can't add to it. Like 250-275 foot putter throws with little to no lower body. But I'm not sure how to translate to drivers with x step.

 

[CoachChris]

A good brace is one of the most difficult moves in all of sports to learn (after about 16) and incredibly difficult to teach. Watch all the videos you can, and while you are learning focus on keeping your body as far from your plant as is possible. (It is too easy to climb on top of your plant foot)

 

[Sard0nyx]

A good brace is one of the most difficult moves in all of sports to learn (after about 16) and incredibly difficult to teach. Watch all the videos you can, and while you are learning focus on keeping your body as far from your plant as is possible. (It is too easy to climb on top of your plant foot)

What are so good brace videos? There's a lot of different stuff floating around on YouTube. Also, any good mental or positional cues? Similar to your cue to elbow down the door with the arm but for the lower body.

Also, do pros hips start to open before the brace?

 

[Shallows]

NYTimes: Dart Perfection

We're not the only sporting trying to figure out improvement.

 

[CoachChris]

What are so good brace videos? There's a lot of different stuff floating around on YouTube. Also, any good mental or positional cues? Similar to your cue to elbow down the door with the arm but for the lower body.

Also, do pros hips start to open before the brace?

No on opening hips up before plant (unless it is just in their natural motion. Hip rotation is caused by a great plant. Trying to physically engage hips is a waste of time in my opinion but it works for some.

Try Trebuchet and Spin Doctor videos. The plant is difficult to learn because the brain doesn't like the idea of being off balance. That's why everyone moves over top of the plant foot. It takes a long long time to get, be patient and always be working on it.

 

[Kennets]

Sard, watch loopghost videos, he got a few with different "feel the brace" videos, where he uses different stuff that will put you in the right direction.

Hi Chris. We have had some brief conversations on form via messenger and some of your cues to the FH did me really well - I still however, question your BH "deep pocket" way of learning it, it might just be me being daft, but I (me, myself and I) have a hard time actually feeling the momentum with a strict "no shoulder, only arm" kinda approach. Where as, if I do a hammer swing, noodle arm (dingle arm), I find it way easier to pick up the momentum and how/when the "out happens". English isn't my first language, but I hope you get my drift.

I'm not expert and this isn't a dig at you, I just can't wrap my head around it.

 

[CoachChris]

Sard, watch loopghost videos, he got a few with different "feel the brace" videos, where he uses different stuff that will put you in the right direction.

Hi Chris. We have had some brief conversations on form via messenger and some of your cues to the FH did me really well - I still however, question your BH "deep pocket" way of learning it, it might just be me being daft, but I (me, myself and I) have a hard time actually feeling the momentum with a strict "no shoulder, only arm" kinda approach. Where as, if I do a hammer swing, noodle arm (dingle arm), I find it way easier to pick up the momentum and how/when the "out happens". English isn't my first language, but I hope you get my drift.

I'm not expert and this isn't a dig at you, I just can't wrap my head around it.

I understand that it is hard, especially if you had a more shoulder dominant throw for a long time. It is really just timing not a separation of different movements. Not all get it. The goal is to get to a good PP position so the arm is at a better position at release. My suggestions are really for those stuck at 300' and looking to improve. I did a big distance invitational event at the Preserve with 10 of the sport's big throwers, not all of them do it. (Most but not all). Keep throwing.

 

[CoachChris]

 

[timothy42b]

It is important to think of horizontal abduction (picture elbowing a door) in the context of the entire motion of a throw. To think about it in relation to a kinetic chain would be something like a baseball pitch. The ground, and the bigger muscle groups play a significant role in transporting the baseball and hand into the release but you better be able to move your arm quickly.

In a DG throw, getting in to a deep power pocket is about the timing of moving your upper arm into positionbefore the rotational force of your shoulders prematurely extend your elbow. Practice that timing from the top down. Initially with standstills and just moving upper arm. (It takes a couple of weeks of deliberate practice) and then slowly adding more shoulder rotation and momentum. If properly done it will feel that it takes less effort to throw because of the reduced inertia of the deeper power pocket. Don't expect it to happen over night.

Hope this helps. I can expand on it if it doesn't make sense.

What are your questions regarding disc pivot?

Thanks. That's similar to a Beto drill? but I've watched Beto 2.0 recently and his throw starts with elbow forward. His throw opens the elbow.

I think you are starting with the upper arm not abducted, maybe pointing at 90 or even less, and throwing by moving the elbow forward. If I understood.

This reminded me of something in Bertholy's Swing Construction 101. He had his students do deltoid lifts: bent over, dumbbell raises to the side with straight arms. I hadn't thought of those in years.

 

[CoachChris]

Thanks. That's similar to a Beto drill? but I've watched Beto 2.0 recently and his throw starts with elbow forward. His throw opens the elbow.

I think you are starting with the upper arm not abducted, maybe pointing at 90 or even less, and throwing by moving the elbow forward. If I understood.

This reminded me of something in Bertholy's Swing Construction 101. He had his students do deltoid lifts: bent over, dumbbell raises to the side with straight arms. I hadn't thought of those in years.

The problem with the Beto drill is he is starting from the right pec position. That is the easy part. Finding the timing to get to that position from reach back is the challenging part.

 

[sidewinder22]

Try Trebuchet and Spin Doctor videos. The plant is difficult to learn because the brain doesn't like the idea of being off balance. That's why everyone moves over top of the plant foot. It takes a long long time to get, be patient and always be working on it.

Don't like mine?

 

[Sard0nyx]

The problem with the Beto drill is he is starting from the right pec position. That is the easy part. Finding the timing to get to that position from reach back is the challenging part.

Can you elaborate on this timing? I always feel I have trouble getting to the pocket from the reachback. I don't know what's supposed to move the arm forward. I've read a lot of the old forums and know a decent amount about the Beto drill and the history. But they never really connected that part of the throw to the rest of the body or explained how to power up on the Beto drill.

 

[Sheep]

No on opening hips up before plant (unless it is just in their natural motion. Hip rotation is caused by a great plant. Trying to physically engage hips is a waste of time in my opinion but it works for some.

Try Trebuchet and Spin Doctor videos. The plant is difficult to learn because the brain doesn't like the idea of being off balance. That's why everyone moves over top of the plant foot. It takes a long long time to get, be patient and always be working on it.

I'm starting to think that if you didn't participate in some activities as a kid, the idea of bracing is really foreign to your body and brain.

But we can really look into the attribution of this from a larger format of data.

Activities that involve bracing we probably did as kids.
Sliding.
Good ole slide tackle.
But that's sliding on the ground!
It's a brace that turns into a slide.

So where am I grabbing that one from?
Ever been ice skating? Hockey stop. that's a hard brace. Snow skiing, when you carve/turn, you are bracing.

Really just need a list of activities that a brace is used, even if its not a brace like we are actually doing. Because its drawing from that feeling of how we are destroying the energy.

When we are throwing in disc golf, we are trying to brace hard enough to not fall through, not fall back, but stop in a way that the energy wants to drive vertical.

I really think we can figure out a way to teach bracing to people who started later, but its finding other activities that people need to do to feel the brace.

Most of the time its just explained so poorly, not necessarily due to lack of understanding, but because words are hard.

Annoyingly I just illustrated this all in my head on how it works.
But, I dont' draw things on the computer. If I did, all this would be SOO much easier.

 

[Sewer bill]

I'm starting to think that if you didn't participate in some activities as a kid, the idea of bracing is really foreign to your body and brain.

But we can really look into the attribution of this from a larger format of data.

Activities that involve bracing we probably did as kids.
Sliding.
Good ole slide tackle.
But that's sliding on the ground!
It's a brace that turns into a slide.

So where am I grabbing that one from?
Ever been ice skating? Hockey stop. that's a hard brace. Snow skiing, when you carve/turn, you are bracing.

Really just need a list of activities that a brace is used, even if its not a brace like we are actually doing. Because its drawing from that feeling of how we are destroying the energy.

When we are throwing in disc golf, we are trying to brace hard enough to not fall through, not fall back, but stop in a way that the energy wants to drive vertical.

I really think we can figure out a way to teach bracing to people who started later, but its finding other activities that people need to do to feel the brace.

Most of the time its just explained so poorly, not necessarily due to lack of understanding, but because words are hard.

Annoyingly I just illustrated this all in my head on how it works.
But, I dont' draw things on the computer. If I did, all this would be SOO much easier.

Pretty much every form of fakie or nollie variation of a shuv it or big spin on a wake skateboard, skimboard or skateboard involves maintaining balance through a weight shift while planting and rotating aka planting and following through.

I think skimboarding has more balance similarities and is way more user friendly for the falling off aspect if someone wanted to increase their braced balance to improve their bodily perception.

 

[sidewinder22]

Pretty much every form of fakie or nollie variation of a shuv it or big spin on a wake skateboard, skimboard or skateboard involves maintaining balance through a weight shift while planting and rotating aka planting and following through.

I think skimboarding has more balance similarities and is way more user friendly for the falling off aspect if someone wanted to increase their braced balance to improve their bodily perception.

Ugh, skate/snow board lingo is so hard to understand. Every skateboarder that plays disc golf seems to do very well with distance. I can't even get both feet on a skateboard, or I couldn't growing up although I could snowboard ok, but I think I could skateboard now having a better understanding, but I'm not risking that fall now. Maybe if you put me a giant air bubble thing.

 

[BruisedOoze]

Sliding.
Good ole slide tackle.
But that's sliding on the ground!
It's a brace that turns into a slide.

I don't want to detract from the point of the rest of your post (like the more salient skating stop, etc) and the point about children trying to slide this way after learning to skid to a stop, but this is entirely the opposite of what you want in a good slide. Bracing just slows it down, and ties up the lead leg from better playing the ball/base, if it doesn't just outright stop you once cleats are involved. You want to bend/collapse a running leg to engage a slide, then all your momentum will still carry forward. You can pull-off a slide tackle in soccer and the lead play foot can even finish the tackle before it even touches the ground. Just dig up slide tackle montages and you will see what I mean.

Given how much talk is spent on people mimicking what they see (i.e. squish the bug) versus reality, I thought this is a good point to bring up.

 

[Countchunkula]

Ugh, skate/snow board lingo is so hard to understand. Every skateboarder that plays disc golf seems to do very well with distance. I can't even get both feet on a skateboard, or I couldn't growing up although I could snowboard ok, but I think I could skateboard now having a better understanding, but I'm not risking that fall now. Maybe if you put me a giant air bubble thing.

I hopped on a skateboard a couple of years ago to show my kids what they were supposed to be doing. I was on my ass within 30 seconds. I can't imagine trying to learn skateboarding as an adult.