BillyJackO's Form Adventure*

[sidewinder22]

Your front toes are going airborne and forward. Keep them on the ground and move your heel back and forth.

 

[billyjacko]

move your heel back and forth.

This has helped quite a bit, but I still can't get the knee to lead the hip without striding. I'm not sure if it's that I'm so focused on the rear side mechanics that the front side goes to garbage, or if it's something more fundamental I'm not getting.

Here's one from yesterday where I'm trying to implement that;

Anyways, I'm continuing to work on getting off the rear side. I tried getting the hip drive into the plant as I'm reaching back. I believe this is what Slowplastic is talking about here;

My point is though you just get to a certain part of the reachback/backswing and plant at this max reachback. Instead that's when you should be starting the door frame drill and turning deeper back while your right toes are touching down. You miss out on this deeper turn into the rear hip because you are setting the right foot down once you get to the farthest reachback point without the extra door frame/from behind loading.

Best way I can describe the feeling is it's like the upper body is cocking, while the lower body is pulling the trigger. I can see my brace is all f'd up, I'm still pivoting the plant knee way inward, and the head tilt is off, but this is the first time I've been completely off my rear foot before the disc passes my left shoulder. It looks off, but I need to know if this is the right approach.

https://gfycat.com/GleefulLavishAustralianfreshwatercrocodile

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking somewhat better, less flat footed, but still looks rushed/eager to turn/spin upper body before you shift downstairs - slow down, be smooth. Get your front heel even higher with toes still on ground, the heel should turn further up counter clockwise with the leg as you get up on your tippy toes. Watch how my heels move in Perpetually Longer Swing Drill.

Also looks like your balance is too far over your rear toes and not quite pushing off the inside edge/instep, don't fear the rear heel on the ground.

 

[deyo7]

I like the creativity of throwing into a mattress (I assume?). I would try that but I'm sure I would find a way to throw the disc into my face, lol.

Dude, I'm telling ya: listen to sidewinder about "looks rushed/eager to turn/spin upper body before you shift downstairs". Just experiment with trying not to rotate your upper and lower body at all. Let the brace from your linear motion behind you (gas pedal to can crush) be what forces you to rotate. Don't swivel your hips or try to throw the disc. Just give it a shot.

 

[slowplastic]

Best way I can describe the feeling is it's like the upper body is cocking, while the lower body is pulling the trigger. I can see my brace is all f'd up, I'm still pivoting the plant knee way inward, and the head tilt is off, but this is the first time I've been completely off my rear foot before the disc passes my left shoulder. It looks off, but I need to know if this is the right approach.

This description makes sense with me. I feel like I am loading back my upper body/right side/shoulder into my back leg, and then as the plant is coming down I push off the rear instep in the gas pedal manner...that sets everything going forward and it can't stop. It's definitely moving in the right direction in your last images.

As for your right knee, I would say as you load back onto the rear leg remember to rise up. Your whole body will lift up, so you don't have to bend your right knee so much...don't need to do the Schusterick. You can keep your right leg/knee somewhat extended and still turn back to land on its heel, with the foot in front of the knee, knee in front of hip. Getting up on your rear leg will give you little bit of height needed to do this with an extended leg.

With the slow down stuff...let your weight from the backswing lift your body to the rear leg, let that lift the front side. You are lifting the front leg earlier than needed I think, which sets everything else in motion a little off.

I also agree you look a little hunched over the toes in the upper body, especially in the first gif from yesterday.

Remember to push off the instep/gas pedal, drive the knee down/inwards rather than rotate off the toes. See how the right knee is shifting forward in this picture, instep still contacting ground and heel moving ahead...a rotation will happen and toes will be the last to leave after.

 

[billyjacko]

remember to rise up. Your whole body will lift up, so you don't have to bend your right knee so much.. Getting up on your rear leg will give you little bit of height needed to do this with an extended leg...you look a little hunched over the toes in the upper body...

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I think I've been so focused on keeping my weight loaded and inside my frame on the rear side it's causing me to be too cautious with letting the weight come back/up. Instead, I'm squatting into the right hip, and causing the right side leverage to be gone as my butt swings way past my knee. I think getting more lift/height in the backswing will help me drive off the instep because the rear leg will have more room to move laterally without the right leg jammed up against it.

I can see what Deyo is saying as well with allowing the pull to be delayed (I'm now understanding what it means to delay the pull until the power pocket, as the arm is just along for the ride until the hit.) It's definitely going to take a massive amount of practice to get the sequence down to something normal, but I can feel how explosive it can be and it's nice to know I'm headed the right direction. You can see the massive difference in swing below in the ongoing series I call the evolution of man.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your elbow should be forward of your shoulder in that position so your eyes would be on your disc. Too much hugging yourself lag(too quick transition) and not enough keeping your eyes on the disc and the swing arc you want to put on it.

 

[UhhNegative]

I like the creativity of throwing into a mattress (I assume?). I would try that but I'm sure I would find a way to throw the disc into my face, lol.

Dude, I'm telling ya: listen to sidewinder about "looks rushed/eager to turn/spin upper body before you shift downstairs". Just experiment with trying not to rotate your upper and lower body at all. Let the brace from your linear motion behind you (gas pedal to can crush) be what forces you to rotate. Don't swivel your hips or try to throw the disc. Just give it a shot.

And that's what the hershyzer drill helps you to feel. It almost feels like a "trust fall" for those of us who are so used to opening the hips before falling into the plant (crushing the can). Honestly I like this hershyzer drill from a baseball video. Using a chain link fence you can actually fall into it and feel what's it like to stay turned back.

 

[UhhNegative]

And I like what you said deyo about the brace and linear motion "forcing" you to rotate. My best feeling, most effortless throws have been ones when I smash into the plant (from behind, I would guess, no throws of mine on video like that so far) and then everything just comes through without even thinking about it.

 

[billyjacko]

I finally feeling like I'm getting a half decent weight shift, and off the rear foot in a more timely manner. Still looks flat footed in the transition (need to stay more on rear toes.) Also, need to be more narrow in the lower body (maybe more internal rotation of the front hip?) Distance, accuracy, and consistency are all there right now. I'm focusing on staying upright, getting my back completely turned away from the target, and slamming onto the plant foot while driving off the rear leg.

Nova, 305'

https://gfycat.com/ExaltedInexperiencedFlicker

Buzzz, 315'+

https://gfycat.com/FavorableInfantileBluebird

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep, need to turn your front leg inward/back or "shift from behind you". Note how Brinster plants into the front foot/leg closed and stays compressed on the front leg(tilted spiral) while you are jumping up out of compression.

 

[Ice9]

Hey Billy - I've been following this thread since the beginning.

I always pay close attention to the advice posted here because I believe you and I share similar form issues. I can see when you're striding forward you're focusing all your effort into trying to power through with your hips. However, it appears that you're exerting/opening yourself too early and planting/weight shifting with your lead foot pointing more target-ward than closed. As Sidewinder has already mentioned, you're not "shifting from behind."

It's taken a lot for me to try and break the same habit, and I really had to change up my field work to get my body to do something different. I had watched can crushing and door frame videos countless times, and while I think they're great drills, for some reason whenever I would go to throw I couldn't reproduce that closed move. The one leg drill was probably the closest in keeping me closed, but as soon as I added a step or two I found myself cheating and opening early.

So I will propose you try what finally started to break some habits for me: a 360 approach.
Now, of course you won't take this to the course and throw every shot 360. And you will need to be cautious that you don't develop a rounding habit, but for the purposes of breaking out of old footwork habits I think this could be a good drill for you.

When I first started throwing with a 360 approach I found that it's VERY obvious when you plant open. I'm not sure if it's the concentration on new footwork or all the extra rounding momentum that just makes it feel wrong when you don't plant closed. I had to take it very slow and build speed to get it right. You don't even have to throw at first -- concentrate 100% on footwork.

Eventually when I got 360 down I went back to a normal approach. The biggest difference I noticed (aside from being more closed) is I was much more aware of what my rear leg was doing. It now seems like I load it more to get myself turned back further, and I now have a much stronger push off my rear foot. I *think* this is the gas-pedal move / rear foot eversion.

As I mentioned before, I'm at a similar skill level as you. I've got a lot to learn, so hopefully sidewinder and other experts can weigh in on if this is decent advice or not.

 

[billyjacko]

Hard to gauge how this is translating based on throwing into a bed mattress, but it feels pretty nice. I'm focusing on rotating the front hip in while turning the shoulders back and into the plant, and planting down hard onto the toe. Still looks a little flat footed, and not really compressing and staying in compression, but the hip is staying loaded into the plant. Also, seems I'm staying more closed through the hit.

 

[RandyC]

Id like to see you doing the one leg drill? Since it looks like your problem lies on not getting a good plant. Maybe that would help you get the right feel of things?

 

[sidewinder22]

Id like to see you doing the one leg drill? Since it looks like your problem lies on not getting a good plant. Maybe that would help you get the right feel of things?

Agree, you are blowing out your front foot instead of pivoting centered, and when you finish you are still drifting over to the left side of the teepad. Your momentum in the followthrough should carry you over to the right side of the tee pad around/past your stable pivoted front foot and still posted/braced up front leg.

 

[billyjacko]

Some one leg action. I've never been able to 'realize' or 'feel' anything of significance like everyone seems to say with this drill. I do it pretty often, but still never really understand what I'm supposed to be getting out of it. I know it's supposed to be the feeling of being braced up on the front foot, but I just don't get it. plz halp.

 

[slowplastic]

The source of the problem. Spinning freely around the leg/axis. I can't help you from this angle though, but I'm sure someone else can. But if you can get a video with a view from behind, meaning toward the target you would be throwing at, that would help.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are too bent over which restricts your hip(not really upright on front hip/knee/ankle/foot) and not really turning your pelvis with your arm and body loose and relaxed and all swivel-ly. You appear more tight and all twisted/locked up. Note how upright I am on the front leg and how much my pelvis/body turns/swivels effortlessly back and forth with the arm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=2m50s

 

[RandyC]

Dont try to move forward anymore. Just extend up. That small knee bent that pops ahead of your hips indicates that you are still trying to move.

 

[billyjacko]

You are too bent over which restricts your hip(not really upright on front hip/knee/ankle/foot)

Too bent over at the hip/pelvis, knee or both?