Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

Oh I see, so that is different than releasing an ultimate disc, at least for me and my grip. Just curious!

 

[Melonhusk]

Throws were all over the place today; I think I improved in my lower body, but something is really going wonky with my upper body. Every one of these throws was intended to be straight, flat/baby hyzer, 15 ish feet off the ground with about 200 feet of power, but very few today actually flew like that. I was pretty much just trying to focus on swinging my shoulder under my chin in the backswing and the swing, and otherwise keeping my lower body in order. Some examples of throws are in this video:



One thing I notice is that it seems like my head is the first thing to rotate forward in the swing; I should probably try to keep that back for longer, right? Keep it more neutral to my shoulders?

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, your head/spine is tilted over and stuck on rear leg axis, instead of shifting lower spine off rear foot to front leg axis in dynamic balance underneath upper body, kind of like a slalom skier, the lower body shifting back and forth underneath the upper body. You want your chin to lead your nose forward and right ear to go up. If you swing your front foot/leg your chin/spine should change tilt with it, like kick the can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

 

[Melonhusk]

I think I may have made some improvement! I focused on keeping my head with my shoulders, and keeping my shoulder relaxed and closed. What I tried this time felt very different - for one, the disc felt very far from my body and low; the "feel" I had was like guiding the disc "backwards" and around waist level. Not sure if that's what would work for most people, but I've got so many bad feels ingrained it seems like I have to think radically to make any changes. My angles and the cleanliness of my release were still a bit inconsistent (the video shows the three best), but I'm not sure if that's just a matter of getting used to doing something very different, or if I'm still doing something fundamentally wrong (or both!).
My lower body definitely suffered for the lack of focus, at the very least I can see I probably needed my stance to be wider? The throws felt sooo easy though; I was blowing past my distance target suddenly with what felt like minimal effort. Here are a few throws:

 

[sidewinder22]

Looking better, but your rear foot is still moving/spinning away in the backswing and rolling over to the outside edge and knee goes behind ankle.

Need to firm up your rear foot/knee in backswing to leverage against the inside of the rear foot/leg, feel taller/extend then get lower as you start to transition forward. This will help you start striding forward earlier in backswing instead of continuing/collapsing away from target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38gp-BWlhnM#t=9m

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok yes, definitely feel that. Haven't tried it in a real swing yet but just slowly setting up the backswing, if I focus on resisting inside my back leg while bringing my right shoulder under, the whole thing just feels really taut and coiled up. Thanks!

 

[Melonhusk]

Alright, threw a session today trying to focus on really resisting into the ground through my back instep, and also swinging my shoulder properly. Results were mixed! But I think these two were probably the best throws, at least to my eyes:





Balance may have been a bit far forward? Not totally sure. I was also getting a bit of pain in my rotator cuff by the end, I'm guessing due to shoulder tension during the throw, trying too hard to get it to do the right thing.


I haven't posted forehands in a while, as I just kept making the same mistakes week in and week out, but finally some progress! Nice, nose down throws today, the adjustment being starting the disc more around my chest, instead of up by my head. I was also bracing better I think.



I have a couple concerns, one being I'm not sure how much more power I have in the tank as-is? Was maxing out at about 220 on flat-fade lines, which was perfect as I'm not actually allowed to throw any further rehab-wise this week, but I did feel like I was probably giving it all I had without compromising cleanliness of spin. There is obviously a way to throw harder keeping things clean, but I guess I'll need a few adjustments.

Other thing is, looks like my upper back is sort of angled up? I was trying to find a good picture for comparison, but basically I'm looking at this:

vs this:

That's the best side-on pro angle I could find, but it seemed like all the good forehand throwers I could find had their backs nicely aligned.

 

[sidewinder22]

You got good turn back, but you stance is a bit wide and too upright(balance forward) and not loading your shoulder back behind rear knee. Guessing your shoulder issue is from lack of followthru. If you are really wound up in door frame drill you should shoot forward unwinding like bow and arrow.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need more rear hip hinge/squat and counter rotation away from target. Your left arm/shoulder need to close away from target leading the way forward and then tuck in to sling shot the trailing shoulder/arm/disc forward.

 

[Melonhusk]

You got good turn back, but you stance is a bit wide and too upright(balance forward) and not loading your shoulder back behind rear knee. Guessing your shoulder issue is from lack of followthru. If you are really wound up in door frame drill you should shoot forward unwinding like bow and arrow.

Interesting, I think I feel wound up, but I guess to me it feels like I'm "initiating" the throw with my shoulder. I can totally feel the difference in how easy the power comes when I'm using the ground better, but I guess there's still a moment where I decide "ok, now I'm going to release the tension", and I guess when I think about what it means to do that I'm thinking about starting to resist with my front leg and then also consciously swinging my shoulder.

But if there's a way to get what I'm trying to retrain my body to do - swinging my shoulder under or more level instead of pulling it up by my ear - naturally, instead of trying to force it, I should probably be doing that, right? Maybe I need to figure out a way to film some doorframe drills.

 

[Melonhusk]

Here we go, best I could find for now is an angle from the back but maybe it'll still give a sense

 

[sidewinder22]

You are just doing door frame static. Need to get dynamic. Drop and bounce your butt targetward to pull against the door frame. The door frame should pull you back like spring before you can really plant/shift into front heel.

 

[Melonhusk]

Is this any better? I feel like it's a bit sloppy but I tried for more dynamic.



Also, what is it that makes my back leg come shooting forward all the way to the point that it knocks against my front leg? Is that from not bracing hard enough? Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, your front knee is bending too much. Bare feet also likely causes slippage.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok this is a bit of a long one, as today was kind of a mixed bag.

Throughout all of these I was mainly focusing on trying to load my shoulder behind my knee, and continuing to leverage off my back foot without it collapsing, or lifting up my back foot, etc. I think the good news was the power was pretty easy to come by, and this time I didn't feel like I was wrenching my shoulder or anything. I could definitely feel how much my shoulder wanted to shoot forward when it was loaded up back there. Bad news was I definitely slipped back into some old habits.

These are all in chronological order. Including this one because it went far:



Over time I started loading up even further back. This is probably the most extreme - like the title says, is it too far?



This one came out nice, and I know I was trying to really try to think about sitting vertically down after the backswing



This is one of those things that always creeps in for me, it seems like no matter how hard I try (or try hard to not try) my front shoulder likes to go up, instead of forward. I could be off base here but it seems to me like it's probably affecting my ability to throw lower shots. Even all the good shots were on an upward trajectory, which is not necessarily what I was going for, and this is one of the shots where you can really see it redirect upwards. You can see too how I'm really setting up for a low, level shot, but then halfway through things shift to where the disc can't really do anything but be ejected upwards. I don't know, that's just my interpretation of it but something's up for sure.




Forehands were actually nice today, I still battled nose up issues but as long as I remembered to keep my arm low on the backswing, and step first then throw, I got nice low nose down shots. I had to jump up to 240 today, and if I managed to get the discs over even a little bit I was overshooting that, so I definitely found another gear trying to be more closed off with my off arm, and getting a bit more athletic. Next step I think is to get better at throwing angles; still had no real idea what any of my shots were going to do and it'd be nice to be able to work these a bit more, get a bit more distance for the power I'm giving them.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your grip/wrist/disc alignment look nose up.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3440757&postcount=4

Your stance is too wide in setup and not able to really shift or rotate back and forth efficiently. Setup in a narrower stance and take a small step forward.

 

[sidewinder22]

Still need to work on the rear hip hinge/counter rotation and left arm. You are so open. Try pointing your lefty pinky(pinky up/thumb down) and back of front shoulder at the target and then tuck the arm in. Note how my arms in perfect counter balance/action to each other.

 

[Melonhusk]

Gotcha, yeah I see how I'm not getting much shift going on. I've looked at Seppo and Will for standstill inspiration before, who both use a pretty wide stance, like here at 3:17



Or here at 34:00



but I can also see that they both do a really exaggerated shift into their throw, bending their back leg and getting back on their front heels so they get linear movement into the wide stance. Am I interpreting that right, that that's the only way a wide stance works, is if you really make sure to shift? And what are the benefits of doing this vs just narrowing the stance?



FH: I see, yeah I could definitely get deeper on my back leg. As for the shoulder, I was trying to do what I thought was closing it off, but it looks like the main difference between your left arm and mine is yours is a lot more internally rotated. Is that the idea?

 

[sidewinder22]

Wide stance feels powerful, but is really inefficient and makes it harder to shift and rotate back and forth. I'm not a fan of it especially for learning.

 

[sidewinder22]

FH: I see, yeah I could definitely get deeper on my back leg. As for the shoulder, I was trying to do what I thought was closing it off, but it looks like the main difference between your left arm and mine is yours is a lot more internally rotated. Is that the idea?

Yes and arm extended like swimming, grabbing the water in front of me to pull me forward. You are trying to swim with just your elbow/chicken wing.