Casual Water

[HawaiiJack]

Off the tee I went slightly right into a low lying area covered with water after recent heavy rains. There was no going further right or backwards for relief, the area was submerged. Taking relief directly lateral to the left was needed to get to slightly higher ground. But going directly lateral moved me "closer" to the pin by bringing me back in a direct line with it, Pythagorean Theorem and all that. There was an objection that direct lateral relief was "moving closer to the pin". True if you are a Geometry major but nobody brought a compass and protractor and I wasn't about to start trying to guess triangulation distances or arcs along a curve. The distance moved laterally was maybe 2 meters and don't ask me distance from there to pin, maybe 110 feet. I threw a mid-range on next shot. What should have been done? Did I need to come back diagonally from the casual water so as not to be "closer" and if so how in the world would the proper angle/distance be determined.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You play it from the location in the casual water or go back on the line of play (lining up your disc with the basket) up to 5m. Those do not cost you a penalty. If you are still not out of the water going 5m back, you can go back as far as you want and add a 1-throw penalty or you can rethrow your shot with a 1-throw penalty. There is no option to move sideways from your disc in the water even if it would not move you closer to the basket.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

So, if your disc lands in standing water, and there's no dry spot within 5.0 m going back along the LOP from the basket through your disc, you're choices boil down to:

a) throw from the water: penalty is wet feet for the rest of the round, but no strokes
b) throw from more than 5m back along LOP: + 1 stroke penalty
c) rethrow from previous lie: + 1 stroke penalty

Did I comprehend correctly?

 

[Dan Ensor]

My lie is in casual water, so I take relief 5m back. If I'm still in casual water, I am in the same situation; my lie is in casual water. Why can I not take 5m back?

I'm not taking 10m from my lie in casual water, I'm taking 5m from my lie in casual water.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

My lie is in casual water, so I take relief 5m back. If I'm still in casual water, I am in the same situation; my lie is in casual water. Why can I not take 5m back?

I'm not taking 10m from my lie in casual water, I'm taking 5m from my lie in casual water.

That seems like wishing for 3 more wishes...

 

[HawaiiJack]

Rule 803.01B clearly says you take relief, you do not play from casual water. You may take relief at the nearest lie no closer. There is nothing about cannot go in a certain direction, other than line of play. So moving to "nearest" lie seems straightforward - come directly out of the water and do not advance toward the pin. No?

 

[bradharris]

My lie is in casual water, so I take relief 5m back. If I'm still in casual water, I am in the same situation; my lie is in casual water. Why can I not take 5m back?

I'm not taking 10m from my lie in casual water, I'm taking 5m from my lie in casual water.

the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is no closer to the target, is on the line of play, and is not more than five meters from the original lie

You cannot get relief from the relocated lie, only the original lie.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So, if your disc lands in standing water, and there's no dry spot within 5.0 m going back along the LOP from the basket through your disc, you're choices boil down to:

a) throw from the water: penalty is wet feet for the rest of the round, but no strokes
b) throw from more than 5m back along LOP: + 1 stroke penalty
c) rethrow from previous lie: + 1 stroke penalty

Did I comprehend correctly?

Yes.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Maybe ... but I feel like I'm just asking that a rule pertaining to my lie pertains to my lie. Even though I am being slightly fececious in my rhetoric, I really do feel I should be able to do it. Not allowing me to take 5m is based on a lie that no longer exists.

 

[bradharris]

Rule 803.01B clearly says you take relief, you do not play from casual water. You may take relief at the nearest lie no closer. There is nothing about cannot go in a certain direction, other than line of play. So moving to "nearest" lie seems straightforward - come directly out of the water and do not advance toward the pin. No?

It says you "may" take relief, but you are not required to.

It also says relief must be on the line of play (line from pin to disc). So if you do opt to take relief, you must move backwards along that line. If you have to move back more than 5 meters, you must take a stroke penalty.

 

[bradharris]

Maybe ... but I feel like I'm just asking that a rule pertaining to my lie pertains to my lie. Even though I am being slightly fececious in my rhetoric, I really do feel I should be able to do it. Not allowing me to take 5m is based on a lie that no longer exists.

Better wording might be to say you can obtain relief no more than five meters from where the disc came to rest.

But I think the "original lie" wording still covers that pretty well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The TD can specify you can take extended free relief more than 5m if needed to get out of the water. In addition, if it's a rec round, your buddies might allow you to take relief sideways.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

The key here is relief must be taken along the Line Of Play. Remember from middle school geometry that a line is defined by two points. In this case, the two points are:
1) the pin
2) your disc in the water
That line is essentially of zero width, and extends away from the basket, in the direction of your disc, for an infinite distance.

a) Any relief that is not taken along that line is a violation.
b) Any relief taken along that line, but more than 5m away from your disc, results in a 1 stroke penalty (unless otherwise stated by the TD).

 

[joshmo65]

The key here is relief must be taken along the Line Of Play. Remember from middle school geometry that a line is defined by two points. In this case, the two points are:
1) the pin or a mando
2) your disc in the water
That line is essentially of zero width, and extends away from the basket, in the direction of your disc, for an infinite distance.

a) Any relief that is not taken along that line is a violation.
b) Any relief taken along that line, but more than 5m away from your disc, results in a 1 stroke penalty (unless otherwise stated by the TD).

FTFY

 

[Dan Ensor]

If you want me to only take 5m from where my disc came to rest as a result of my previous throw, that would be my "previous lie".

Previous Lie
The lie resulting from the most recent throw, as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, the corresponding approximate lie.

I'm arguing that taking 5m is establishing a new "original" lie.

 

[bradharris]

I'm arguing that taking 5m is establishing a new "original" lie.

I understand your point. And since "original lie" is never defined, it ends up being semantically vague in this scenario.

However, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone in your group that this is a legal interpretation. We can all understand what the intent of the rule is. The use of "original lie" is clearly meant to define the lie where the disc came to rest.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you want me to only take 5m from where my disc came to rest as a result of my previous throw, that would be my "previous lie".

Previous Lie
The lie resulting from the most recent throw, as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, the corresponding approximate lie.

I'm arguing that taking 5m is establishing a new "original" lie.

The RC has covered your scenario by defining a disc's "position" separate from lie. Your disc only has a 'position' until you declare it as your lie, meaning the place where you will take your stance, or legally relocate it to another position and declare it as your lie. So when you move back up to 5m, you don't have a lie yet since you still don't wish to take a stance there, just a position. I think the RC might need to improve the wording in the Obstacle Relief rule to use the words 'disc position' rather than 'lie' to be consistent with its position/lie definitions.

 

[Steve West]

The TD can specify you can take extended free relief more than 5m if needed to get out of the water.

All TD's holding events at Kaposia, please take note.

 

[peabody]

That seems like wishing for 3 more wishes...

:clap:

 

[mashnut]

My lie is in casual water, so I take relief 5m back. If I'm still in casual water, I am in the same situation; my lie is in casual water. Why can I not take 5m back?

I'm not taking 10m from my lie in casual water, I'm taking 5m from my lie in casual water.

Can I put a mini in front of my mini to get a little closer to the basket? If we're considering rules to be recursive I'd love to just repeatedly mark my lie until it's 2' from the basket. I'd also like to repeatedly take my 1m in from OB until I arrive at the basket.