Disc Golf as alternative to Bolf

[UCF_Knight]

You don't create a disc golf course by simply playing the ball golf holes with a disc.

Most golf courses should not add disc golf. However, there are 16,000 golf courses. If only one out of four could host a disc golf course, that roughly doubles the number of disc golf courses.

Let's take the 10% of golf courses that would be most suitable for disc golf and create 1600 good new disc golf courses.

It's about the only place we're going to find open land within populated areas.

^This!

The success of a shared bg/dg course will also depend on the types of courses your area currently has. In south florida we have very few holes, even from pro pads, that are legitimate par 4's or any type of hole that requires a placement shot and an upshot. When I travel for tournaments some of the most intimidating holes are these types, which most people look at as an easy opportunity to birdie. A mildly interesting ball golf course down here would work great just because no other course within 250 miles offers the length or decision making challenge that that kind of space allows for.

 

[simpletwist]

Personally I think a disc golf course on a ball golf course is just plain impractical at best.

That said, there are a couple instances where it could work well. First at public parks where a golf course exists and there is still suitable terrain for a completely separate disc golf course. A good example of this is Beaver Island SP in Western NY. Both types of courses coexist in the same park but are completely separate from each other. And recently NYS has stepped up their game committing time and resources to maintain as well as improve the disc golf course.

The second instance would occur at semi private, private, and resort type golf courses. But in my mind is essentially the same as the public course mentioned above. Completely separate courses utilizing the same land. There is I believe one PGA event in WV if my memory serves me that has a disc golf course on the property. But this disc golf course shares none of the golf course.

 

[DavidSauls]

The hurdles of cost and value remain.

If you find that small percentage of ball golf courses with suitable land for a course equal in quality to the best courses in the area, what would the fee to play be? If more than $10, I suspect the clientele would go the free or cheaper nearby courses instead. If it's only $10 or less, I suspect the disc golf course will look at that, compared to what golfers pay, and have second thoughts about the whole project.

Perhaps if you can find the right location, where the course will be signficantly better than any nearby courses, but not so remote that there are too few disc golfers, you'd have your best chance of success.

 

[ru4por]

Even the poverty issue is overblown. Among disc golfers who could afford significant fees to play disc golf on a ball golf course---and there are a lot more of them than some people realize---they don't find it worth the expense, except as an occasional change of pace. In most places the other available courses are cheap or free, and much better courses for disc golf, too.

Yup, completely agree. I golf in circle of masters and grands. We all have jobs, money and the ability to afford any course. I choose to rarely play the combo course near me. Why? Because it is open, long, tedious to play around small missles and swat golfers who don't know I am there or just refuse to pay attention. I would far rather get back into the woods. If I want the country club experience, I will play swat golf.
I would much rather head to the nice, up north, swat golf mecca, stay there, enjoy the ammenities, bar, restaruants, pools, sauna, spa and then go out to play local disc golf courses. Playing with golfers on the swat course does not interest me.

 

[DavidSauls]

I've played two combo courses within an hour of me---one just a few minutes detour from my daily commute---and played them each once. Even if they were free to play, I have better options.

One of these had potential. It was great land, a beautiful setting, and a blue-collar golf course. That is, not stuffy. But the layout was mostly long and boring, and it was so remote from disc golf populations that even if they'd created a spectacular course, the traffic would have been fairly light.

It'll work somewhere. It probably is working somewhere. But I doubt there are many places where it will work well.

 

[Peterb]

In California and other parts of the west, disc golf can actually save golf's hide because of the extreme drought we're currently experiencing. All golf courses are going to go to pasture right about now, and local golf courses that have a clue are practically begging disc golf to come in and set up on the golf course because golfers won't play unless the greens and fairways are watered. Why would they? I don't blame them as a golfer (I play both). So NOW is the time for western disc golf designers and builders to go pitch DG to golf courses as it will help these institutions make it through the drought.

I'm currently in talks with a local 9 hole course that has excellent elevation changes, trees to avoid, and plenty of length to make it a great destination disc golf course while playing with the flow and being as respectful as possible to the golfers who hang on.

 

[Star Shark]

One down side that I've heard to this is at one of our local disc/Ball golf courses, ball golfers aren't playing there much anymore because there's too many disc golfers. They make less money on DG than on ball golf so this is negating the point of installing DG: to supplement ball golf income.

 

[scarpfish]

I've always wondered how we'd discuss this topic had the word "golf" had never entered into the official moniker of our game and Steady Ed and the powers that be called it something else. Same game, same objective, same equipment, etc., just no use of the g-word.

 

[filobedo]

Foot golfers pay green fees and are very organized with sustainable marketing. Many dger's gripe about paying $50 tournament entry fees with a $70 players pack and gripe if the have to pay $5 - $10 to play all day at a ptp course.

 

[cooker]

Thanks for all the comments and input. I'm not sure what some of you read, I may not have clearly stated my random thoughts or maybe used to many abbreviations for different golf forms, but the OP was meant to focus on "Why doesn't the PGA or private courses use Disc Golf to promote participation in golf like they do with Foot Golf?"

Applicable comments to this seem to highlight:
- Traditional golf courses aren't good for disc golf.
- Foot Golf has aligned itself with the PGA.
- Disc golfers won't pay greens fees.
- Disc golfers "image" (poor hippy drug users) is frowned upon by traditional golfers.


My thoughts on these topics:
- Good disc golf courses designed for specific skill levels using the best land features without messing up the flow of traditional golfers, foot golfers, and disc golfers are possible even if that hasn't been the experience some of you have had. While not my favorite courses, I've enjoyed the three disc golf courses I played on traditional golf courses. One was a temp set up used on off days to bring in customers at a muni course, the others were installed on struggling traditional courses, one of which also had foot golf. Beginner courses are easy to do, blue/gold level would require much more commitment to attract locals regularly...but are possible. It would all depend on the course owners objectives, but there are many ways disc golf could be used to market golf in general.
- This makes a ton of sense. Smart move on the part of Foot Golf for a bunch of reasons (and some drawbacks), but seems to make more sense then trying to sell local municipalities to install foot golf courses in public parks. I can imagine making that pitch and the response you'd get because I've done it with disc golf..."Hi there Mr. Parks and Rec. Here's a well thought out proposal to use 15-30 acre of land for a new type of golf, it'll cost less than a basketball course to install and people love it...trust me!"
- While I'm very aware of disc golfers tendency to lean towards free or super inexpensive options (no charge courses, finding/winning discs rather than buying, some attire choices), there are many that can/will/do pay greens fees for disc golf and traditional golf. I don't think full fee's would work at most places, but something is better than nothing for a struggling facility or temporary courses used on slow days.
- Hard to say if the "image" holds us back. There are many degenerate traditional golfers welcomed to the courses that are only there to drink, smoke, and curse...they just dress up while they do it. As long as disc golfers follow club rules, we'd fit in fine.

Many of you seemed instantly closed off to the idea of the PGA marketing golf by spreading disc golf, that surprises me.

 

[Steve West]

As for image, when disc golfers first start playing golf courses, they will make mistakes - four players hanging off the side of a moving a cart, etc.

The thing to do is remind the staff that new ball golfers make the same mistakes. The staff likely haven't seen ball golfers make those mistakes recently, because there haven't been any new ball golfers. For the first time in years, the staff will be dealing with new customers again. Just treat the new disc golfers like they would new ball golfers.

 

[DatRedDude]

Thanks for all the comments and input. I'm not sure what some of you read, I may not have clearly stated my random thoughts or maybe used to many abbreviations for different golf forms, but the OP was meant to focus on "Why doesn't the PGA or private courses use Disc Golf to promote participation in golf like they do with Foot Golf?"

Applicable comments to this seem to highlight:
- Traditional golf courses aren't good for disc golf.
- Foot Golf has aligned itself with the PGA.
- Disc golfers won't pay greens fees.
- Disc golfers "image" (poor hippy drug users) is frowned upon by traditional golfers.


My thoughts on these topics:
- Good disc golf courses designed for specific skill levels using the best land features without messing up the flow of traditional golfers, foot golfers, and disc golfers are possible even if that hasn't been the experience some of you have had. While not my favorite courses, I've enjoyed the three disc golf courses I played on traditional golf courses. One was a temp set up used on off days to bring in customers at a muni course, the others were installed on struggling traditional courses, one of which also had foot golf. Beginner courses are easy to do, blue/gold level would require much more commitment to attract locals regularly...but are possible. It would all depend on the course owners objectives, but there are many ways disc golf could be used to market golf in general.
- This makes a ton of sense. Smart move on the part of Foot Golf for a bunch of reasons (and some drawbacks), but seems to make more sense then trying to sell local municipalities to install foot golf courses in public parks. I can imagine making that pitch and the response you'd get because I've done it with disc golf..."Hi there Mr. Parks and Rec. Here's a well thought out proposal to use 15-30 acre of land for a new type of golf, it'll cost less than a basketball course to install and people love it...trust me!"
- While I'm very aware of disc golfers tendency to lean towards free or super inexpensive options (no charge courses, finding/winning discs rather than buying, some attire choices), there are many that can/will/do pay greens fees for disc golf and traditional golf. I don't think full fee's would work at most places, but something is better than nothing for a struggling facility or temporary courses used on slow days.
- Hard to say if the "image" holds us back. There are many degenerate traditional golfers welcomed to the courses that are only there to drink, smoke, and curse...they just dress up while they do it. As long as disc golfers follow club rules, we'd fit in fine.

Many of you seemed instantly closed off to the idea of the PGA marketing golf by spreading disc golf, that surprises me.

The reason the PGA partnered up with foot golf is so that they get them in the door and convert them to golfers. $$$$ I heard an interview on sports radio a while back with a local golf pro at one of the courses that has foot golf and he said exactly that. There is way more disposable income in the soccer mom world than there is in the free parks everywhere why would i pay 20$ to play disc golf world.

I don't think its an image thing, when i tell people i play disc golf they say wtf is that. I never hear oh that hippy frisbee thing. I play both golf and disc golf and i can attest that there are just as many stoners playing golf as there are disc golf. As you stated above the only difference is on a golf course they have collared shirts.

 

[DavidSauls]

Foot golf also doesn't have a base of thousands of existing courses---all free or very cheap and many far better than what could or would be installed on a ball golf course. If you're a soccer player interested in trying out foot golf, about the only place you can go is the golf course that offers it.

 

[Peterb]

I would actually love to play foot golf at my local disc golf course. I think the blend of elevation changes, trees, and other obstacles would make for a very challenging and interesting experience. Putting especially is difficult since I would simply use the baskets. I'd probably take a huge load of shizz from the disc golfers waiting behind me though...

 

[SamuliKL]

- While I'm very aware of disc golfers tendency to lean towards free or super inexpensive options (no charge courses, finding/winning discs rather than buying, some attire choices), there are many that can/will/do pay greens fees for disc golf and traditional golf. I don't think full fee's would work at most places, but something is better than nothing for a struggling facility or temporary courses used on slow days.

It's not only that quite a few disc golfers are cheap (which is a fact), it's also about the different costs incurred by ball golf and disc golf.

On the one hand we have beautiful and well-equipped golf courses who need to work at nearly 100 % capacity at prime time to stay alive. Every player brings in about 50 $/€ per round and usually pays an annual fee. Such a course can't afford to replace ball golfers with disc golfers and consequently it can't provide much of a supply for disc golfers.

On the other hand we have the extremely beautiful, versatile, continuously improving and privately owned Järva Discgolf Park in Stockholm, Sweden (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdGYYSn-Nlo). Without paying any annual fees you can play for a full day for about 10 $/€ (80 SEK). In the end, mixing ball golf and disc golf would probably be a very bad financial investment for both the ball golf course and the disc golfers.

There are some cases where combining these two can be financially sensible. For example if a golf course has a Par 3 course or if it has more holes than required it can turn these into a disc golf course or a mixed course. I know that the latter has been done in Finland in one place and from interviewing the CEO of the golf club I know that at least it wasn't a bad investment.

 

[jeremyhilss]

Im totally fine with the way disc golf courses are now, and I rarely ever have an urge to try disc golf on a regular golf course.

However - dont forget that parts of Highbridge Hills are built on what was going to be a ball golf course. Think Blueberry Hill, hole 2. Who doesnt love that basket?

 

[TruthHurts]

This is idiocy. Here's why:

1. Golf courses don't make good frolf courses.
2. Golf may be contracting, but it's not going away
3. Frolf has an image problem
4. Frolfers are too cheap to step up and do what is needed.

Supporting points below:


As someone who plays both sports, I can tell you that there are very few traditional golf courses that would make good disc golf courses. The concepts of the two games are totally different, despite their similar objectives and scoring systems. They measure in yards, we measure in feet. Their top pros hit a ball nearly twice as long as our top pros throw a disc. The average golfer drives the ball 225 yards, the average frolfer might throw 200 feet (and yes, I'm including duffers and chuckers. They're part of both sports). Conversely, given that disc golfers are throwing their projectile instead of striking it they are far more accurate in the lines that even average players can hit. The point? The spacing of obstacles is much different on a golf course vs a disc golf course. A treeline with trees spaced 50' apart is a significant obstacle to your average golfer, whereas it provides almost no challenge to a disc golfer.

Despite the much discussed "death of golf" the GolfSmith, Golf Galaxy, and golf section at the local Dicks Sporting Goods are almost always some of the busiest stores at the local shopping center. There may be less people starting to play golf, and casual fans dropping out, but semi-serious to hardcore golfers still have semi-serious to hardcore disc golfers outnumbered 1000 to 1, and when you factor in casual players the ratio gets worse for us.

Most disc golf courses are havens for underage drinking and a certain drug that is still illegal in most places. Even the best maintained courses around me have litter here and there, and several are disgusting. This is something you don't see on a golf course usually. I'll admit there are several factors in golf's favor here (players have carts, there is usually a trash can at every tee, etc) but player pay for these amenities. Even courses without trash cans at every tee don't have the litter problem disc golf courses do.

Finally, land is expensive and disc golfers are CHEAP! The average public golf course takes up over 115 acres, of which 60-70 are maintained, and the rest account for rough, obstacles, clubhouse and parking facilities, etc. Even assuming a private course owner wants to sell, who will buy? Probably a developer who will bulldoze the course and put up homes. If we're talking about a city course, or the local gov't buying a private course we're back to being outnumbered. The demand to fix up the course and leave it a golf course will be higher than the demand from the disc golfers. Plus the city can realize revenue from a traditional golf course that it cannot from a disc golf course.

It's a cute little idea, but the simple fact is that the courses that will be available will be the worst golf courses in any given area, and in most areas there is no one to buy them to convert them to a disc golf course anyway.

:clap::clap::clap:

A few years ago before it was normal to host disc golf tournaments on golf courses, the course owners hosted a 2-round, best shot doubles disc golf tournament. One round was held in the afternoon, the other was a glow round. They offered a golf cart, and a 6-pack for a cheap entry fee. Result?

Some d-bag gave the course owner's wife "special" brownies without her consent. A few of the carts got damaged as well. THAT was the image that disc golfers presented to people reaching out, and giving disc golf a chance.

This happened in northeastern PA, not Cali, or some "weed friendly/tolerant" area. Another side note, the guy who gave the brownies to the owner is now a tournament director who hosts a series of overpriced doubles events. It's not like he was some random noob who did something stupid. This is what I think of whenever people try to equate golf to disc golf.

 

[donnyv]

I took my wife and kids to the miniature golf / putt putt over the holidays and dropped over $50 just for the 5 of us. Movie theaters cost what, $10-15 per person these days? Add in pop and popcorn and I'm reaching for a c-note and getting hardly any change back

I'd hope people would donate $5-10 each to play my private course but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'd hope people would donate $5-10 each to play my private course but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Wise choice.

Though we're going to put up a sign with a firm suggestion that a $5 donation be considered, and see how it goes.

 

[pmay5]

As someone who plays both sports, I can tell you that there are very few traditional golf courses that would make good disc golf courses. The concepts of the two games are totally different, despite their similar objectives and scoring systems. They measure in yards, we measure in feet. Their top pros hit a ball nearly twice as long as our top pros throw a disc. The average golfer drives the ball 225 yards, the average frolfer might throw 200 feet (and yes, I'm including duffers and chuckers. They're part of both sports). Conversely, given that disc golfers are throwing their projectile instead of striking it they are far more accurate in the lines that even average players can hit. The point? The spacing of obstacles is much different on a golf course vs a disc golf course. A treeline with trees spaced 50' apart is a significant obstacle to your average golfer, whereas it provides almost no challenge to a disc golfer.


I have to disagree with this point from puckstopper. Golf courses make great places for new Disc Golf courses. The DG course doesn't have to follow every fairway of the golf course, they can be run up the rough, across the fairway or on their own path on the property. If the golf course is still open, and mixing in DGers, the basket can be put near the green, with the green as OB, there's your obstacle. The basket can be tucked into the trees on in the golf rough, there's your obstacles. The DG hole can be placed along a lake, or across a lake, there's your obstacle. It would make things a lot more interesting when your sweating losing a $20-$30 disc, versus losing a $3-$5 golf ball!

Most of our local courses are full of trees. It would be nice to have an option to play a course with some open drives, then challenging upshots. With adequate mowing, golf courses would make great DG courses.

There are a few golf courses down here that have closed and the on-course residents are raising cane because they don't want the course replaced by more homes. One of them even have it in writing, so the land is sitting overgrown and empty. Both of these would make good DG courses, although the local towns would probably have to buy them and run them as a park course. Too expensive to be run privately.

It sounds like most of the golf/DG course combinations put 18 DG holes on 9 golf holes. (One local course even put 18 foot golf holes on their front 9.) The distances seem to match up pretty well. Now, if I can just get one of these towns to buy one of those closed courses and put in 36 DG holes, with a club house. :thmbup:

I really think that even a nominal fee $5-$10 per day, would keep most of the chuckers off these courses. I just can't see those kind paying to play, when they can go to a local park and play for free.