Feeling the weight of your disc (body Momentum from pocket and out)

[Sard0nyx]

I think we focus on arm speed and slow motion a little too much these days. Watch most pros throwing and their arms don't move that fast when they throw. But when the disc comes out it shoots out like a cannon faster than their arm is moving. Yes. They shift weight properly. And yes, their posture is correct. But those things won't get you that kind of throw. You can do those things right and still have the disc come out as fast as your arm is moving.

 

[OJnBasquits]

First time poster - been lurking for some time.

*feeling the weight of the disc in the throw*. (BH)

How does that feel, in your throw?

(English isn't my first language, so I'm sorry if stuff doesn't makes sense. I'll do my best)

All of this, is while staying loose.

Been doing hammer-drills at home, just messing around in the yard really. When dingling a hammer around in a pendulum kind of swing, it's easy to get the feeling of how to brace, when you should "pull" and generally is such a easy "throw". how does that translate to a nearly weightless disc?

I've heard people talking about "catching" the disc in the powerpocket, feeling the forward momentum and accelerate from there. I've tried with putters in a ridiculous slow shot, really trying to feel the weight of the disc and sling it out with some succes, but getting the arm up to speed whilst having the same feeling, that seems impossible..

When throwing a hammer, the "hit" happens around when entering the powerpocket, everything tense up (core, front leg etc) and it feels like the throwing arm flings it out while just trying to keep up with the ride (not sure how to explain it)

Is it the same feeling for you power throwers?

And how do i cooperate that into a 90% power throw?

Didnt read all the way through the thread, but what seems to be immediately missing from your first post here is the thought of moving the disc through the teebox in a straight forward path. Always try to pass on the line " move your body around the disc not the disc around the body" when trying to teach power. There is was some really good overhead aerial videos of some pro's tee offs a good while back, hopefully one the trolls will know where to find it. good luck

Also think some of your thoughts above are asking for "power player injuries" when u can instead work on the thought of getting out of the way instead of bracing for impact. An efficient shot will feel and look like a clean follow through. stretch stretch hydrate stretch.

 

[Brychanus]

I think he's being a bit hyperbolic. It seems clear to me that most instruction these days is very basic. A simple pendulum swing will probably max out at around 400ft if you don't learn how to put the extra sauce on it. I don't think any modern teachers have managed to simplify the teaching on snap that was so prevalent in the early 2010s. Watching top pros walk up and flick their wrist to throw 300ft shows that were clearly missing something in our throws. You can chalk some of it up to athleticism, but my reading into the old archives of DGR shows that there are ways for normal people to throw well over 400ft if they can harness the snap and have proper lower body and weight shift. Unfortunately, we all like to focus on the easy things to fix (body control and mechanics) over trying to figure out the mystical snap. Ultimately, that will hit a plateau unless the extra sauce is figured out.

I think we focus on arm speed and slow motion a little too much these days. Watch most pros throwing and their arms don't move that fast when they throw. But when the disc comes out it shoots out like a cannon faster than their arm is moving. Yes. They shift weight properly. And yes, their posture is correct. But those things won't get you that kind of throw. You can do those things right and still have the disc come out as fast as your arm is moving.

Thanks for the replies! I want to continue talking about the "special sauce" and "snap." Can you share any of the older DGR threads on this you found the most helpful?

I had tended to think that much like golf, a high-quality kinetic chain executed quickly will yield the best "smash factor" (ball speed greater than club head speed, as much as ~1.5x).

https://golfinsideruk.com/what-is-the-perfect-golf-swing/

In that case, a good disc golf swing will yield a smash factor greater than 1.0 on the disc. You'll need to move faster to yield the maximum speed. In that case, the "snap" is just the effect of having an excellent kinetic chain that remains excellent as you speed up. Many things can break in the chain to screw up the smash factor. Screwing those things up is more likely if the player doesn't have mastery of the mechanics and especially if the chain starts to break as they speed up.

Snap in that case may also be related to how pristine the late arm mechanics are in the swing. That topic has come up in one form or another in a couple recent threads again. All that lovely weight shift and lag doesn't matter so much if the arm doesn't put it into the disc, including shoulder external rotation and wrist supination into the hit after the pocket.

 

[Brychanus]

Struggling with the last part, specially when I'm throwing flat/anhyzer lines. I ens up with shoulders/frontside turning towards target and "hugging" myself.

Any particular drills that helped you out?

I had a lot of trouble with this at first. It has gotten more consistent overall after the last couple weeks' changes including better hip rocking, but the most effective thing in my case was to practice maintaining good posture from backswing to the hit in one leg drill. I found it helpful to visualize images like this:

You want to get comfortable swinging the arm & disc forward over the front leg by adjusting your overall body. Like most things starting more extreme helped and looked less extreme on camera than I felt. I also found that practicing one "stock" anny angle over and over helped, then it's easier to tell if I either need to change the disc or shift to a more extreme angle (e.g., for a roller or big flex, etc.)

 

[Sheep]

I'm still confused what the claim is here.

In this thread, you appear to twice agree that a neutral head position and relaxed neck is desirable, which is indeed part of the seabas-style pendulum way of teaching.

I am not clear about the basis of the 500ft vs. 300ft claim. That appears to be a general claim about the system of thought and teaching and not just about the neck in particular. Perhaps 300ft is hyperbole, but the claim still seems to imply there is some kind of fundamental deficiency that precludes someone from achieving 500 ft. Perhaps you are referring to throwing in a pendulum - appearing style rather than just the system of teachin- this is unclear to me.

While 500 ft is uncommon for reasons not just strictly related to form, if you spend time on the form critique thread there are cases of folks achieving and exceeding 500ft from the pendulum style of instruction and mechanics despite what end up being probably more superficial differences in the form (drk_evns gets at this above). So here again, I am not sure what the claim is about.

I'm usually not so confrontational about specific claims I see around here, but this one is really leaving me struggling and it bothers me when I misunderstand something. So I persist

I'm not sure what hyperbole is.... so uhh.... whatever.

And I'm not sure how the neutral head thing is such a hook up.

Relaxing your head and neck stops you from muscling the shot. Period, done, end of story.
Don't lead with your head.

A standard pendulum swing will net you an easy 300 foot drive. I'm just stating a nice easy basic swing is 300 ft all day.

I think what I said got taken a bit to... critical?

I was trying to talk about basic swing mechanics, and I think I said it a bit to black and white.

Basic pendulum swing = easy 300. Not 500.

When you add in the "sauce" and extra things to drive the whole chain, yeah, you can probably get 500.

I think the hangup is the one Time I didn't type 5 paragraphs to explain something, everyone got hung up on my to basic of language.

 

[Sheep]

It seems clear to me that most instruction these days is very basic. A simple pendulum swing will probably max out at around 400ft if you don't learn how to put the extra sauce on it. I don't think any modern teachers have managed to simplify the teaching on snap that was so prevalent in the early 2010s. Watching top pros walk up and flick their wrist to throw 300ft shows that were clearly missing something in our throws. You can chalk some of it up to athleticism, but my reading into the old archives of DGR shows that there are ways for normal people to throw well over 400ft if they can harness the snap and have proper lower body and weight shift. Unfortunately, we all like to focus on the easy things to fix (body control and mechanics) over trying to figure out the mystical snap. Ultimately, that will hit a plateau unless the extra sauce is figured out.

I think we focus on arm speed and slow motion a little too much these days. Watch most pros throwing and their arms don't move that fast when they throw. But when the disc comes out it shoots out like a cannon faster than their arm is moving. Yes. They shift weight properly. And yes, their posture is correct. But those things won't get you that kind of throw. You can do those things right and still have the disc come out as fast as your arm is moving.

I think you're getting the wrong impression on things for sure. But what the overall sound I'm grabbing from your comment is this. You believe in the old school way of throwing the frisbee.
The special sauce is explained quite well by Brychanus. It's a kinetic chain. It's all leverage adding up to the release of the disc.

The pro's that can walk up an "flick their wrist" if were not talking bout forehands, are actually not that many. Those who can and make it look effortless, like Simon, who just casually pops a putter 200+, he's learned how to make a LOT of leverage with low effort, and that's the whole point of leveraging the disc and driving more and more of the energy behind it.

The old school way is about pulling and muscling the disc. That stuff is bad.

The reason you focus on the "easy" things is simply this. The basics are what allow you to throw far with low effort. If you're basics are not together, how do you expect the other parts to come together? The special sauce is taking a few really basic steps and putting them together.

I had tended to think that much like golf, a high-quality kinetic chain executed quickly will yield the best "smash factor" (ball speed greater than club head speed, as much as ~1.5x).

In that case, a good disc golf swing will yield a smash factor greater than 1.0 on the disc. You'll need to move faster to yield the maximum speed. In that case, the "snap" is just the effect of having an excellent kinetic chain that remains excellent as you speed up. Many things can break in the chain to screw up the smash factor. Screwing those things up is more likely if the player doesn't have mastery of the mechanics and especially if the chain starts to break as they speed up.

Snap in that case may also be related to how pristine the late arm mechanics are in the swing. That topic has come up in one form or another in a couple recent threads again. All that lovely weight shift and lag doesn't matter so much if the arm doesn't put it into the disc, including shoulder external rotation and wrist supination into the hit after the pocket.

Absolutely Nailed it.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm not sure what hyperbole is.... so uhh.... whatever.

And I'm not sure how the neutral head thing is such a hook up.

Relaxing your head and neck stops you from muscling the shot. Period, done, end of story.
Don't lead with your head.

A standard pendulum swing will net you an easy 300 foot drive. I'm just stating a nice easy basic swing is 300 ft all day.

I think what I said got taken a bit to... critical?

I was trying to talk about basic swing mechanics, and I think I said it a bit to black and white.

Basic pendulum swing = easy 300. Not 500.

When you add in the "sauce" and extra things to drive the whole chain, yeah, you can probably get 500.

I think the hangup is the one Time I didn't type 5 paragraphs to explain something, everyone got hung up on my to basic of language.

Hyperbole was referring to whether you meant 300 literally. In that post, I think that it was not the lack of more paragraphs but the basis of the specific claim. In your follow up here, I think you are making a distinction between a basic pendulum swing and something else. So it's helpful to clarify what is meant by "basic" there.

I usually tend to think the advanced swing is like a compound pendulum using that complex kinetic chain. It does seem possible to pendulum with the body but still miss key pieces of the swing (maybe that's a useful definition of a "basic" swing). So there I was also attempting to clarify if there is something specific missing in the seabas instruction on that end because much of it begins with what we might call the basic full body pendulum motion, but also includes the more advanced mechanics in the chain. Also relevant to mention that some players may never learn to swing fast enough in balance with a nice advanced swing for big distance.

 

[Sad2980]

Thanks for the replies! I want to continue talking about the "special sauce" and "snap."

... Snap in that case may also be related to how pristine the late arm mechanics are in the swing. That topic has come up in one form or another in a couple recent threads again. All that lovely weight shift and lag doesn't matter so much if the arm doesn't put it into the disc, including shoulder external rotation and wrist supination into the hit after the pocket.

I have been struggling with these concepts for the better part of two years. DGCR has been my main source of info during this time and I've focused a lot on weight shift and the kinetic chain, even referencing some of the same graphs Brychanus has posted in this thread.

Academically I think we have a good idea of how the swing works through the kinetic chain, but I find the concept much harder to apply in a proprioceptive sense (I.e. it's easy for me to understand the concept but very difficult to apply).

I think discussion about the concept of snap help put focus on the later parts of the chain which aren't discussed as often as good balance, backswing, etc. Thinking about applying spin and snap to the disc has helped me achieve a different feel in my throw and encourages me to focus on proprioceptive learning instead of cognitive learning, if that makes any sense.

Additionally, I watch a lot of pro footage and I often hear pros talk about putting rotations/spin on the disc. Lately I have been wondering if we on DGCR are ignoring a fundamental property of disc flight - the gyroscopic nature of a disc. I've read a lot about how discs fly like a wing but very little about gyroscopic stability. I have brought the topic up a time or two without any further discussion developing. Personally, I'd be really interested to hear what the "gurus" think about spin/gyroscopic stability and how this is imparted during the throw, especially in the later parts of the kinetic chain where people mention "snap" and the "secret sauce".

 

[OJnBasquits]

Additionally, I watch a lot of pro footage and I often hear pros talk about putting rotations/spin on the disc. Lately I have been wondering if we on DGCR are ignoring a fundamental property of disc flight - the gyroscopic nature of a disc. I've read a lot about how discs fly like a wing but very little about gyroscopic stability. I have brought the topic up a time or two without any further discussion developing. Personally, I'd be really interested to hear what the "gurus" think about spin/gyroscopic stability and how this is imparted during the throw, especially in the later parts of the kinetic chain where people mention "snap" and the "secret sauce".

Believe u sir are on the verge of a breakthrough in your game with these thoughts. Heres a challenge snap a disc without holding the rim. GL

 

[Spectacledbear]

I was clearing some rough with a machete earlier today. Found it frustrating actually, not the work itself, but how easy it is to get leverage on it than a disc. If the disc felt like a machete i feel like i could throw 450 - probably not.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Thanks for the replies! I want to continue talking about the "special sauce" and "snap." Can you share any of the older DGR threads on this you found the most helpful?

I had tended to think that much like golf, a high-quality kinetic chain executed quickly will yield the best "smash factor" (ball speed greater than club head speed, as much as ~1.5x).

https://golfinsideruk.com/what-is-the-perfect-golf-swing/

In that case, a good disc golf swing will yield a smash factor greater than 1.0 on the disc. You'll need to move faster to yield the maximum speed. In that case, the "snap" is just the effect of having an excellent kinetic chain that remains excellent as you speed up. Many things can break in the chain to screw up the smash factor. Screwing those things up is more likely if the player doesn't have mastery of the mechanics and especially if the chain starts to break as they speed up.

Snap in that case may also be related to how pristine the late arm mechanics are in the swing. That topic has come up in one form or another in a couple recent threads again. All that lovely weight shift and lag doesn't matter so much if the arm doesn't put it into the disc, including shoulder external rotation and wrist supination into the hit after the pocket.

I think your explanation is good. We need to make sure all that force we're building up gets into the disc. I haven't gotten the snap yet, but I think I'm starting to see things more clearly.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&t=24805&sid=0fd50f118e055868111dce12e9ba2264

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&t=19220&sid=0fd50f118e055868111dce12e9ba2264

Here's a couple threads from DGR and the old teachings. I don't know if the teachings from the around 10 years ago are disputed today or if they have just been mostly forgotten. There are a bunch of threads in the technique section about people working things out and asking different questions. It might be worth going through those and reading up on stuff.

I need to get out into a field and do some more throws. Sometimes when I throw and I get the timing right, I can feel the disc shoot out of my hand and travel maybe 40-50 feet further. I think it's just a matter of figuring out that timing and making sure it happens every time.

 

[timothy42b]

A standard pendulum swing will net you an easy 300 foot drive. I'm just stating a nice easy basic swing is 300 ft all day.

Basic pendulum swing = easy 300. Not 500.

On my home course 300 feet would be plenty on all but a couple holes.

Alas, I have yet to throw 300 even once. (been here 7 years now.)

 

[Sprinklerado]

A friend of mine started playing this summer. He's 52, and hadn't watched a single disc golf video before picking up a disc. Let's call him Martin. From the get-go, Martin had what looked like a very wonky version of a backhand drive: He held the disc at stomach height, and basically just whipped his forearm out to the right (when seen from above), without any normal "pull" or reachback. His first throws were a bit all over the place, with many initial attempts going straight up, but his better throws were getting out to around 250 feet, and I decided to let him keep at it, rather than force some advice about technique on him.

I've now played with Martin about 10 times, and he now throws 330+ feet, using the same wonky technique (he has added a runup, but I don't think it's doing much), and his accuracy has improved immensely. My conversations about Martin, with another friend of mine, usually goes like this:
My friend: "How can he get the disc that far?!"
Me: "I have no idea. He's just arming it, with his forearm. Isn't he?"
My friend: "Yup. It can't be right. It doesn't look right, either."
Me: "But we didn't throw 330 after a month, did we...?"
My friend: "It's been almost 3 years, and I still can't throw 330!"

I think what Martin is doing, essentially, is "pounding the hammer", like in Blake T's secret technique. It's working very well for him, and I think I'm going to explore some wonky-looking throwing myself.

 

[Sheep]

I have been struggling with these concepts for the better part of two years. DGCR has been my main source of info during this time and I've focused a lot on weight shift and the kinetic chain, even referencing some of the same graphs Brychanus has posted in this thread.

Academically I think we have a good idea of how the swing works through the kinetic chain, but I find the concept much harder to apply in a proprioceptive sense (I.e. it's easy for me to understand the concept but very difficult to apply).

I think discussion about the concept of snap help put focus on the later parts of the chain which aren't discussed as often as good balance, backswing, etc. Thinking about applying spin and snap to the disc has helped me achieve a different feel in my throw and encourages me to focus on proprioceptive learning instead of cognitive learning, if that makes any sense.

Additionally, I watch a lot of pro footage and I often hear pros talk about putting rotations/spin on the disc. Lately I have been wondering if we on DGCR are ignoring a fundamental property of disc flight - the gyroscopic nature of a disc. I've read a lot about how discs fly like a wing but very little about gyroscopic stability. I have brought the topic up a time or two without any further discussion developing. Personally, I'd be really interested to hear what the "gurus" think about spin/gyroscopic stability and how this is imparted during the throw, especially in the later parts of the kinetic chain where people mention "snap" and the "secret sauce".

Spin is the worse topic to talk about, I've had some people get really upset over talking about it and call me an idiot. But stability of the disc is SUPER huge when you getting into the distance game. The motion we use to impart leverage into the disc also creates spin, and when you focus the chain into the right spots, you will naturally create more spin.

This is why pro's also get that really reliable S curve while some of us get a nice push but then a dump. Or we get the turn over and no come back.

Thats my theories anyways.

I was clearing some rough with a machete earlier today. Found it frustrating actually, not the work itself, but how easy it is to get leverage on it than a disc. If the disc felt like a machete i feel like i could throw 450 - probably not.

Sidewinder just posted a video about that in another thread showing machette to disc golf swing.

A friend of mine started playing this summer. He's 52, and hadn't watched a single disc golf video before picking up a disc. Let's call him Martin. From the get-go, Martin had what looked like a very wonky version of a backhand drive: He held the disc at stomach height, and basically just whipped his forearm out to the right (when seen from above), without any normal "pull" or reachback. His first throws were a bit all over the place, with many initial attempts going straight up, but his better throws were getting out to around 250 feet, and I decided to let him keep at it, rather than force some advice about technique on him.

A lot of old timers threw frisbees like this.
There are some OG disc golfers here who throw that shot on purpose also.

150 an in, its a laser beam right at the basket.

 

[Sad2980]

Spin is the worse topic to talk about, I've had some people get really upset over talking about it and call me an idiot. But stability of the disc is SUPER huge when you getting into the distance game. The motion we use to impart leverage into the disc also creates spin, and when you focus the chain into the right spots, you will naturally create more spin.

I agree that spin seems to be taboo these days. I'm not sure if it's because of the spin and throw crowd or if it was over emphasized back in the day.

I also agree that leveraging the disc at the correct moment creates spin by changing the angular momentum of the disc and creating torque. I think this is important because the torque increases gyroscopic stability and prevents the disc from precessing which allows the disc to fly like a wing for a longer period. (Disclaimer: I could be mistaken about the science as my background is not in physics).

I think these ideas are important to discuss not only so we have a better understanding of the swing and disc flight, but because they can help us understand why it's important to leverage the disc at the right time.

Anecdotally, I've had a very hard time fixing my strong arming habit. Thinking about putting spin on the disc, feeling the "hit", and improving "snap" have helped me to start putting emphasis in the right spots.

I'm not trying to argue that our technique is wrong, but maybe we don't fully understand why it works and which parts need to be emphasized.

It's been useful to compare our throw to other sports: swinging a bat, club, machete, etc. , or throwing a ball. To me, there is one major difference between swinging/throwing in other sports and the disc golf swing. Our object has to have angular momentum as well as linear momentum to fly - a disc needs to spin.

 

[Sheep]

I agree that spin seems to be taboo these days. I'm not sure if it's because of the spin and throw crowd or if it was over emphasized back in the day.

I also agree that leveraging the disc at the correct moment creates spin by changing the angular momentum of the disc and creating torque. I think this is important because the torque increases gyroscopic stability and prevents the disc from precessing which allows the disc to fly like a wing for a longer period. (Disclaimer: I could be mistaken about the science as my background is not in physics).

I think these ideas are important to discuss not only so we have a better understanding of the swing and disc flight, but because they can help us understand why it's important to leverage the disc at the right time.

Anecdotally, I've had a very hard time fixing my strong arming habit. Thinking about putting spin on the disc, feeling the "hit", and improving "snap" have helped me to start putting emphasis in the right spots.

I'm not trying to argue that our technique is wrong, but maybe we don't fully understand why it works and which parts need to be emphasized.

It's been useful to compare our throw to other sports: swinging a bat, club, machete, etc. , or throwing a ball. To me, there is one major difference between swinging/throwing in other sports and the disc golf swing. Our object has to have angular momentum as well as linear momentum to fly - a disc needs to spin.

Spin helps with high speed stability. The gyroscopic flight is important to the disc flying to its numbers as well as the angle of attack. This helps it resist forces such as wind or the stability of the disc based on its wing shape and how the wind pushes on the disc.

We know what a gyroscope does, and we have the wheel demonstrations.

But the argument I got into was spin and stability, and I got called an idiot, because the spin you can put on the disc greatly effects... affects. Afffects, greatly affects the ability of the disc to hold angles.

Which is why a lot of strong arm throwers who are not pushing energy into the kenetic chain don't get the spin and they get a stall at apex vs a push at apex. the disc is not able keep the angles.

This is probably also why simon can throw shots that seem like they should come right back at him, but instead of stalling and pushing back, they stall and push forward. It's.. annoying. I hate/love you simon.

While the wind tunnel, when i complete it, will give us a TON of data on the wing and how nose angle changes the flight, it cannot really give us data on the spin of the disc changing that.

I'm forgetting a few terms in here I really want to use, but. I digress I'll have to ignore them for the moment as .. brain malfunctioning.

As there isn't really a great way to gather data on the spin of a disc to its flight dynamics, we have to make assumptions and theories until we have a machine that can throw frisbees correctly.

I got it drawn up in my head and how to do it, but there are some engineering parts to it that are a bit to advanced for me and I'm not able to get ahold of the youtubers I really need help from with this who actively do this stuff and have posted video's with similiar machiens for others sports.

But when we have that, we can measure the rotational speed from a control from high speed over head, and then stand in a few throwers of various skill levels with the same discs and see the spin differences then get more accurate measurements of flight dynamics from the disc.

Because what disc golf kind of needs for some standardization of flight numbers is a control, which there is 0 control.
The stability of discs have a lot to do with the archer, not the arrow.
Then there is the issues with poor molding and cooling processes making such dynamic changes in the wing shape on the discs causing different flights.
Which thats a whole different topic.

 

[timothy42b]

As there isn't really a great way to gather data on the spin of a disc to its flight dynamics, we have to make assumptions and theories until we have a machine that can throw frisbees correctly.

I got it drawn up in my head and how to do it, but there are some engineering parts to it

Something like a clay pigeon thrower?

 

[Sheep]

Something like a clay pigeon thrower?

so, as we can see from the "stuff made here" video, that doesn't work great.

But in a way, yes as well.

 

[timothy42b]

so, as we can see from the "stuff made here" video, that doesn't work great.

But in a way, yes as well.

I hadn't seen that video, thanks, that was interesting.

You can get clay pigeon throwers that are spring powered. You cock them and release them. A clay weighs about 105 grams and flies about 45 mph, I think the spring powered ones are a bit slower.

What I was picturing, and the stuff guy didn't do, was vary the spin by attaching the disc at different points - back of the disc to around the front. I don't know if that would work, but I've tried throwing a disc gripping the near side, and it comes out with no spin like a wounded duck.

 

[timothy42b]

I was clearing some rough with a machete earlier today. Found it frustrating actually, not the work itself, but how easy it is to get leverage on it than a disc. If the disc felt like a machete i feel like i could throw 450 - probably not.

I dug out my machete and cleared some weeds. You're right. I get the same feeling throwing sticks, as I pick up fallen limbs before I mow. And yeah it's hard to transfer that to a disc.

One big difference is grip. I grip a machete like a hammer - the wrist moves in ulnar and radial deviation, never in dorsal or palmar flexion. Hard to hold a disc that way.