First Form Review

[allbirdbag]

Looking for help on my tee shot / driving form.

My typical controlled golf distance is 280 - 300ft (if I can keep the nose down). And those are either straight or slight hyzer shots the whole distance. I've been able to get my G Star Teebird and Athena out to 300ft on a low hyzer consistently for about 4 months now.

I have gone through several changes in my form over this off season with varying degree's of success / progress. I've tried the straight arm, very swooping style like Philo, wide rail like McBeth, which actually was nice but I lost the ability to do anything with that style of throw when I tried to fix my footwork.

The most recent change I've made and the most radical results has been changing the tempo and speed of my x-step / run up. I used to do a slow, methodical walk up but I would find myself constantly arming the disc through the shot. Leaving me with 250-275ft of distance (classic dad bod) and an aching back. I felt like I was yanking my arm and back to try and get some speed on the disc as I threw. I've always struggled with feeling the brace at the end of the shot and translating that to power. THEN in the middle of a frustrated field session I told myself to just run. Go full James Conrad and see what happens if you force yourself to stop and brace. So I did and found myself doing a small crow hop, kind of like Aaron Gossage has in his backhand throw (although without the great mustache and sick side arm). The results with shocking. Without thinking of anything else but "catch your weight" I found myself throwing BOMBS. Fairways were going 325-350ft on flex lines. My echo star wraith and Archon were going 360-389ft (measured on u-disc so results can vary a little). They were on these large flip to flat, ride right, then slowly come back to center lines but they were booming. I was absolutely floored. Another strange thing about that was the next day my lats and right pec muscles were sore. Like hard workout sore not injured sore. And my back felt fine!

I found myself during those throws feeling that delay between the x-step and looking back into the back swing while waiting for the plant foot to hit. Like I finally understood the "wait for the plant" concept people have talked about on here and Reddit. But then the doubts started creeping in. I don't think this style of throw is possible long term. And while I was throwing bombs that were ending straight in front of the tee pad position, I was going max effort. And I am constantly hearing and seeing people throw the same distances (350ft+) with what they say is almost no effort. Now I know perceived effort is subjective, what one person finds exhausting another might not notice at all. But it got me overthinking...again. So I went back to the drawing board and tried to be smooth with my throw and tone down the crow hop. And I've found myself constantly frustrated, and seeking help from the gurus!

I've been going back to bracing drills and trying to feel the brace and weight shift in a slower throwing style. Here is a clip of me trying to go through the shift from behind drill from Seabass.
https://youtu.be/-vPmVKi6l40
The thing I didn't like about this drill was that afterwards my right knee was aching and the inner part of my right calf was aching. Still does today actually. And it didn't feel very powerful. I don't know if that is something I'm supposed to feel while performing drills like these.

Here are two clips of my throwing and concentrating on staying upright, good balanced posture, and being smooth with the throw. One in normal speed and the other in slow mo from my phone.
Normal speed: https://youtube.com/shorts/DbXeuPS2j84?feature=share
Slow Motion: https://youtube.com/shorts/DbXeuPS2j84?feature=share

I apologize about them being Shorts. I have no video editing software or knowledge and this was taking last night in the depths of frustration. I think I know the solve though. I've read that filming in horizontal and longer than 60 seconds makes the videos upload as normal videos.

Lastly here is a clip of how I actually am throwing now, trying to keep the crow hop under control but still feel the brace and power through the shot. This was my throwing my echo wraith on a slightly uphill 275ft hole. I overshot the basic by about 30ft. Not trying to brag by any means just giving context in case it matters. I've found myself more comfortable disc'ing up vs disc'ing down if that makes any sense? I'm just more comfortable with a driver style disc in my hand.
https://youtu.be/X3izo9W3u3E

Also if I am muttering to myself I apologize, I tend to talk things through out loud when I'm in problem solving mode, if that makes any sense.

 

[Brychanus]

The thing I didn't like about this drill was that afterwards my right knee was aching and the inner part of my right calf was aching. Still does today actually. And it didn't feel very powerful. I don't know if that is something I'm supposed to feel while performing drills like these.

No, they should not. I sometimes get muscular fatigue from new movements or repetitive/impact stress at the joints when I'm overdoing it. Usually pain occurs when something is wrong, so you were right to stop and get input.

I actually like that you're getting some free movement & your body weight & momentum leading in your last swing there on the real teepad. Keep that up. But the mechanics can use some help. I'm summarizing an overall attack here - I recommend you start with point 1 and spend at least a couple weeks on it/post when needed.


1. I could muscle a driver out to 350' at max effort about a year after I started. I was going to destroy my body that way. I came here because I threw a 9 speed ~400' exactly once effortlessly while visualizing Paul McBeth and couldn't understand figure out how to do it again. Thus, an obsession was born.

Looks like you have the classic straight and flat swing. Let's get rid of that. It's going to take some work.

Psychology: I can tell you're probably a "headcase" like me and you're going to want to think too much about all of this. Let's just get you moving differently first.

(Re)watch these first. Spend time learning the dingle arm in a more circular pattern to help learn the "tilted axis":



I'm a big fan of doing the "one arm olympic hammer" moves sooner rather than later. They're excellent at helping you understand how tilted axis and gravity are supposed to work together. I bet it feels completely different than your current swing. It will also help with that bit of collapsing shoulder/rounding you've got going on.



Otherwise, I might go after these things in roughly this order.

2. Your knee and calf pain are probably related to you landing with your plant hip too close to the target with your knee trapped inside when you land pigeon-toed. Compare to seabas - his plant knee is hanging loose just ahead of his leading hip. When he lands, his knee is protected just ahead of the hip and opening his hip rather than crushing and torquing his knee. I ****ed up my knees throwing like you. Please don't do that!

3. Simplifying throws off one leg can help. Compare your shoulders to SW: I also think you need to fix your shoulder tilt/side bend and door frame drills are really great at that. This will also help you continue to counter-rotate back holding onto the frame while shifting your weight forward, which is what seabas does but is missing in your swing.





4. I can almost guarantee that your move off the rear leg is going to need work as your body changes how it moves. Start playing around with Battering Ram and Figure 8 standstill moves. March/rock/walk against the ground. IMO I would recommend working on standstills for a while until you're moving better w/ less effort and safer overall.








5. If you have stairs, you can get your body ready for X-step rework in the meantime!





BONUS:
Form models - I learned most of what I know from seabas/SW. So like him, I always like looking at young & raw but mechanically powerful form models. Young McBeth is still one of my favorites because it's simple and effective.
What I realize I was actually doing when I got my first surprise 400' shot was actually closer to my body's version of the swing on the left, and I've been seeking improvements and come back to a full or half pendulum style since then. YMMV.

IMHO I agree with seabas/sidewinder that many bodies can do some version of the "freewheeling" form on the left. I think McBeth can only do what he does on the right due to his years of development, incredibly long limbs, wide hips, and narrow shoulders. I've been studying this more recently. Just as an example, I have my middle finger tip hanging at roughly my groin level. Paul's wrist starts at his groin. I will never throw like Paul but I learn as much as I can from his & other players' evolutions.

 

[allbirdbag]

Wow that is a level of detail I was not expecting! Looks like I've got a roadmap which is really nice to hear. A couple things to clarify.

No, they should not. I sometimes get muscular fatigue from new movements or repetitive/impact stress at the joints when I'm overdoing it. Usually pain occurs when something is wrong, so you were right to stop and get input.

When doing the shift from behind drill I need to get my plant leg a little more forward and my feel not pointing towards the target. More perpendicular. Or would you suggest avoiding this drill for right now?

I actually like that you're getting some free movement & your body weight & momentum leading in your last swing there on the real teepad. Keep that up. But the mechanics can use some help. I'm summarizing an overall attack here - I recommend you start with point 1 and spend at least a couple weeks on it/post when needed.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? Its nice to know I'm doing something right and I want to understand and keep doing it.

Looks like you have the classic straight and flat swing. Let's get rid of that. It's going to take some work.

Psychology: I can tell you're probably a "headcase" like me and you're going to want to think too much about all of this. Let's just get you moving differently first.

(Re)watch these first. Spend time learning the dingle arm in a more circular pattern to help learn the "tilted axis":



I'm a big fan of doing the "one arm olympic hammer" moves sooner rather than later. They're excellent at helping you understand how tilted axis and gravity are supposed to work together. I bet it feels completely different than your current swing. It will also help with that bit of collapsing shoulder/rounding you've got going on.

For the flat swing issue it sounds like I need to first read that thread tonight and maybe commit to bending a little at the waist to throw on a slight hyzer instead of actively trying to stay upright and swing flat across?

Also for when I go out and play a casual round with friends, or even in a tournament (there are a few this year I really want to attend). Do you recommend I just use what my natural form is at the time? Or should I avoid play all together until some issues are resolved? Specifically I am thinking about my current form and that I can not feeling any back pain like I used to, which I would consider a positive even though I'm not throwing close to optimally. If the REALpath to progress is to drill and field work for months I'm willing to do it.

 

[notapro]

Otherwise, I might go after these things in roughly this order

I've (re)started working on my form as well this spring, and can I just say, thanks for all the help. This post is insanely good, kudos to you and SW22. <3

 

[Brychanus]

When doing the shift from behind drill I need to get my plant leg a little more forward and my feel not pointing towards the target. More perpendicular. Or would you suggest avoiding this drill for right now?

It's kind of how you're moving overall - too flat into the backswing so you never get "levitated" into the backswing, then since you're not fully counter-rotating and too flat, you kind of crash over the top of the front leg. You've got a lot of stagger there and in the end you should master the "diagonal" shift, but I don't think you have the move down yet and you might want to stagger and shift a little less for your knee's sake. If you want to work on that, first vid here is a good thing to watch:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

This whole vid is gold, but look here in particular for you:
https://youtu.be/0CSHqnYNijw?t=258

In general you want your feet to be whatever's neutral like standing comfortably in the setup.

(re: freewheeling) Could you elaborate on what you mean here? Its nice to know I'm doing something right and I want to understand and keep doing it.

Sometimes when people start to pay attention to their swing mechanics they get tense, which always backfires. You want to be loose and free like this guy:

And the "freewheeling" swing is one where you're letting momentum move freely - down the tee, and from your feet to the disc. That's part of why seabas likes to teach with the pendulum and dingle arms - get everything swinging more loose and even a little wild and learn to harness the power with good mechanics. When you moved down the tee you've got a bit of that. In my experience it is easier to stay freewheeling in drills when you only focus on one thing at a time.

For the flat swing issue it sounds like I need to first read that thread tonight and maybe commit to bending a little at the waist to throw on a slight hyzer instead of actively trying to stay upright and swing flat across?

I agree that throwing on hyzer is a good place to do form work. Easier on the body & helps you learn the tilt and minimizes effort. The big guns are often throwing on hyzer to throw "straight and flat" and their swing is anything but that.

In a high-level throw, throwing on hyzer is mostly about your whole posture, not just bending at the waist:

Usually players who are focused on bending a lot at the waist are doing it because their swing is more flat than optimal. Instead, you want to learn a powerful posture, then adjust the body as a unit, which preserves the swing power and consistency. So I would work on the dingle arm & one arm hammer on hyzer, moving loose and easy.

Also for when I go out and play a casual round with friends, or even in a tournament (there are a few this year I really want to attend). Do you recommend I just use what my natural form is at the time? Or should I avoid play all together until some issues are resolved? Specifically I am thinking about my current form and that I can not feeling any back pain like I used to, which I would consider a positive even though I'm not throwing close to optimally. If the REAL path to progress is to drill and field work for months I'm willing to do it.

You might get different takes from different people. This one's pretty good:

- The "off-season" is the best time to work on things. If you are committed to working on your form, then you can not worry about scoring/performance in competition short term - be prepared to suck or be wild for a few months. If you go back into "competition mode" too early you will likely revert/regress back to old bad habits. Your "training mode" must be settled in before you can go back into "competition mode" and progress.

I have a little wisdom to add to this. I think it's important to choose specific, achievable goals and work toward them. Practice how you play. But how can you make deliberate practice that works for you?

I'll give you a couple examples.

I initially chose to be in "training mode" as long as it took to have "good form," but IMO that is sometimes not specific enough to be useful, and now I understand that form always can take work - even (or maybe especially) if you're trying to win your 6th world championship.

Sometimes you can have a longer-term goal, which helps you attack it with short term goals. For example, with my background (37 y/o, poor levers, injury history + rehab, poor lower body athleticism, no throwing history), I want to crush but realistically I do know that I have a ceiling. So "reducing effort to throw 400' consistently with a mellow driver on a hyzerflip" seems consistent with what my body can do without accruing injuries and is a useful ongoing guide for my progress. Then, I am usually attacking only one or two mechanical issues at a time. For instance, right now it is "slow down and learn to shift better off the rear leg letting rear knee come through". Almost 100% of the time, periods of slowing down to get the mechanic for as long as that takes mean that I throw any distance with less effort and more control. I.e., I made progress on my long term goal.

You should keep in mind that if you are patient and learn well, the learning snowballs - every time I work on the rear leg, I'm also rehearsing everything else I did before it.

Should you play? It depends. Playing is fun. When I play now I have three modes, and each one is important:
1. Training rounds - I care much less about the score and am principally focused on one swing thought during my drives. Every time I have been patient to do this give myself adequate rest, I learn faster. I also still focus on nailing upshots and putts for score. I usually do these solo or maybe with a patient friend.

2. Play mode - I'm ****ing around with my friends. Someone's smoking weed or cigarettes. Someone else probably brought a drink. One of us is teasing someone else (with love, of course). I'm not too focused on the score, and I'm secretly using this as a training round.

3. Score mode - I want to beat the course, and I probably want to beat you too. I just rehearse my preshot routine and let it fly. The only time I think about mechanics is if something obvious went wrong & I have a quick fix for it. My preshot routine looks a lot like SW's at this point, which you'll notice is similar to what a lot of top throwers do. Over time, it helps the body rely on the muscle memory you've built up (and reinforces it again!) and think less. I'm feeling what it's like to pound or throw a hammer out there and letting my body take over. I usually score better. When I'm not killing my body, I get better over time, too.

By the way, I also think that if your swing is in a good place and your body can take it, you can push harder. But I think most people starting out here have enough basic mechanical issues that it's worth slowing down and learning to move better for a while.

People believe that because expert performance is qualitatively different from a normal performance the expert performer must be endowed with characteristics qualitatively different from those of normal adults. [...] We agree that expert performance is qualitatively different from normal performance and even that expert performers have characteristics and abilities that are qualitatively different from or at least outside the range of those of normal adults. However, we deny that these differences are immutable, that is, due to innate talent. Only a few exceptions, most notably height, are genetically prescribed. Instead, we argue that the differences between expert performers and normal adults reflect a life-long period of deliberate effort to improve performance in a specific domain.

I don't think there is one method that works for everybody. No two swings are ever the same from the same person. Perceptions can vary from reality. Cameras can produce parallax and the science can not tell you the intentions and perceptions, or understanding vs knowledge. Everyone has different lever configurations and ability or disability. Experiment. If you just try the same thing over and over, then you are just spinning your wheels out.
http://www.golfwrx.com/91935/method-teaching/

Also read here:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126516

 

[allbirdbag]

Ok so kind of an update from the round I just played. It was a very casual fun round but I only thought about staying loose and not being so upright. Found myself really easily throwing my Thunderbirds and beat up Valkyrie 300ft. Focusing on staying over toes, loose grip, and easy swing and the shots were coming out feeling good.

Can't quote but I am going to read through all those links this weekend and go through the drills suggested. Also going to work on shifting laterally at the last step instead of smacking down forward. Going to think freewheeling like you pointed out.

 

[allbirdbag]

(Re)watch these first. Spend time learning the dingle arm in a more circular pattern to help learn the "tilted axis":

I'm a big fan of doing the "one arm olympic hammer" moves sooner rather than later. They're excellent at helping you understand how tilted axis and gravity are supposed to work together. I bet it feels completely different than your current swing. It will also help with that bit of collapsing shoulder/rounding you've got going on.

Watching these this morning and thinking about it a little more. Sounds like the tilted axis is also leading keeping the butt out as a counter weight when you swing on hyzer angle. Which makes sense.

When I'm doing field work this week though, would I go for a higher backswing into a lower forward swing? This is after doing the drill with a hammer or something to get the feeling. And also throwing from a stand still. I saw in the hammer throw video that Seabas is spinning and bringing the elbow in. I guess I could try that with a disc.

 

[Brychanus]

Butt should be leading & functioning like a counterweight on all angles- that's part of why the relative parts of the body posture are the same in that Brinster image above. It's just somewhat easier to learn on hyzer at first.

From a learning perspective, I like the swing tip to practice swinging lower through the center of gravity/between sternum and navel like the seabas22 Door Frame Drills & dropping with gravity into the plant.

Just to avoid any confusion, Seabas is shifting, not spinning, and he lets his arm follow the hammer back as he shifts & heaves it behind him. As the centrifugal force increases heading into the pocket, he "resists pocket collapse" and hammers it away from him out of the pocket.

 

[allbirdbag]

"dropping with gravity into the plant."

Just to avoid any confusion, Seabas is shifting, not spinning, and he lets his arm follow the hammer back as he shifts & heaves it behind him. As the centrifugal force increases heading into the pocket, he "resists pocket collapse" and hammers it away from him out of the pocket.

So I think I understand the dropping into the plant a little better after that Shawn Clements video. Which is solid gold! The mantra of back, fall, fall is so good. I was going through that drill with a towel and it took a while but after I got my arm loose and my plant at 90% to target (it wanted to close more like before) I felt and heard the towel snap at the release point. Up…fall..fall. Arm didn't really do anything and I just tried to stay loose and fall into the shot. Can't wait to see how it goes with a disc tomorrow.

Also can you elaborate on "resists pocket collapse" please? Does that relate to anchoring your off arm to eject the hand forward? Or like trying to keep the arm at around 90 deg as long as possible like some people say. I'm not going to try and focus on that but I'm curious.

First is foot placement and fixing my tilted axis, or lack there of.

 

[Brychanus]

Also can you elaborate on "resists pocket collapse" please? Does that relate to anchoring your off arm to eject the hand forward? Or like trying to keep the arm at around 90 deg as long as possible like some people say. I'm not going to try and focus on that but I'm curious.

I personally wouldn't worry too much about the exact angle and it can end up somewhat larger depending on form & body type. Here's the way I learned the resist collapse idea:



This is related in general about arm mechanics and leverage: