Form Check/update

[Lumberjack504]

Edit: meant to say "tried to keep the rear foot planted *in the backswing*"


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[sidewinder22]

OLD - You need to look and aim at the target. Also need to move your rear foot(and balance on front leg) so you are on the instep/edge instead of tippy toes. Setup exactly like SC shows.



Standstill - Everything is moving too much left/right/around instead of shifting linear/straight backward and forward. Your arm/disc is way outside your shoulder in the backswing, need to swing back inside out. There should be a straight line from disc/arm/shoulder to target apex at top of backswing, your line is pointed open to the right too much. Elbow looks a little low/hugging and not leading out and forward enough. Not sure what you are doing with your off arm starting the backswing way out away from your body, but it ain't helping. Keep your rear elbow in tight to your body/hip, only your body turning might whip it away from your hip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=367s

 

[billyjacko]

Have you grab a disc and felt like an idiot pressing yourself up against a wall yet? I'm telling you the inside wall drill was a bit of an epiphany for me. If you watch your gif, you can see your rear foot is bailing out counter clockwise with the drifting left. What drifting left is making it so you're turning your torso and pelvis together backwards, instead of rotating the spine with the pelvis leveraging against the rear hip/leg/instep. Get in the inside wall drill, and feel the tension of the spine as you turn back further. Then put a little bit of pressure on that rear foot and feel and watch how the disc automatically comes forward with the spine unwinding. For me, it made more sense trying to get that sensation into the backswing, and to do this you pretty much have to stay upright and balanced.

 

[Lumberjack504]

OLD - You need to look and aim at the target. Also need to move your rear foot(and balance on front leg) so you are on the instep/edge instead of tippy toes. Setup exactly like SC shows.



Standstill - Everything is moving too much left/right/around instead of shifting linear/straight backward and forward. Your arm/disc is way outside your shoulder in the backswing, need to swing back inside out. There should be a straight line from disc/arm/shoulder to target apex at top of backswing, your line is pointed open to the right too much. Elbow looks a little low/hugging and not leading out and forward enough. Not sure what you are doing with your off arm starting the backswing way out away from your body, but it ain't helping. Keep your rear elbow in tight to your body/hip, only your body turning might whip it away from your hip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=367s

OLD - you mean I should be looking at the target in the setup, before I start the backswing correct? I'll reference SC for the lower body setup.

As far as the off arm goes, I saw you say something the other day in slowplastic's thread about cranking the elbow back and how the turn should happen in the hips and a light bulb went off.

Appreciate the advice as always.


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[billyjacko]

Where'd you get this net from and what is it called?

 

[Lumberjack504]

Where'd you get this net from and what is it called?

Craigslist score. Paid $50 for it.

I believe this is the same one: https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/...ZttCb0WTDfnhH6kjt0Tvj-AsPf9ruzWUaAlx-EALw_wcB

The reviews are not good there, but I have no complaints. Seems pretty damn sturdy

 

[Lumberjack504]

Back with a little update - first off, I've changed my grip up to a 4 finger power grip:

https://imgur.com/a/HfiJ6

Discs seem to come out more cleanly and better nose angle.

Also tried to implement a PP or AJ style swim move that seems to give me a bit more leverage with the shoulders coming through. When I stay loose and smooth I see good power going into the disc, I played a round yesterday and hit the cage on a ~300' pin with a comet on a smooth turnover. Also feel like my right glute was being used as it's a little sore today. Not sure if that is a good or bad indication as far as form goes.



Anyways, I know I'm still not getting much out of my lower body. Still drifting to the left in my stride, cross step could be shorter, and I don't feel any load into the rear leg during the backswing. I think this is a massive element of the swing that I'm missing. When trying to load into the rear leg, should the pelvis be swiveling back/away from the target while the rear foot stays firm in the ground?

 

[slowplastic]

I think you're setting up like you're trying to do a shift from behind, but then stepping the plant foot toward the left side of the teepad. Then you are pushing the rear/left hip around the plant leg, "in front" of the plant foot. Your off arm is doing the swim move to counter the throw but the plant leg is just pushing around/through.

What should be happening is the plant step should be more down the target line, and you should be turning back deeper as the leg is getting closer to the ground. The more you turn into the rear hip the easier it will be to stride straighter. Then focus on getting leverage from the rear instep rather than rotation, you will end up rotating once the foot leaves the ground.

The pelvis should be turning backwards relative to the target when loading, but moving closer to the target. Essentially your left butt should be what you are pushing toward the target. To me at the beginning of the right foot step, when my right foot is going over the left, it feels like I'm striding laterally and my right hip and somewhat right butt is going toward the target. Then about 1/3 of the way through this part I start turning deeper into the left hip internally and focus on the back of the left butt toward the target. Trying to step in line and stay closed is very different to me too, I'm still working on it. But when pro's do it it's easy...it should be natural when you do it right in the right balance. So some fundamentals need to change so it's the easy thing to do.

 

[sidewinder22]

Back with a little update - first off, I've changed my grip up to a 4 finger power grip:

Also feel like my right glute was being used as it's a little sore today. Not sure if that is a good or bad indication as far as form goes.

Anyways, I know I'm still not getting much out of my lower body. Still drifting to the left in my stride, cross step could be shorter, and I don't feel any load into the rear leg during the backswing. I think this is a massive element of the swing that I'm missing. When trying to load into the rear leg, should the pelvis be swiveling back/away from the target while the rear foot stays firm in the ground?

Grip looks weak, too deep/low into palm with thumb too high. Try Bratten's 2 finger power grip, disc should be higher and more out of the palm, and trap the thumb over your fingers. Then you should be able to keep your index finger hooked/triggered and thumb trapping and be able to move your other fingers around onto the disc for a better 4 finger modified power grip or fan grip.

Good sign and looks like you cleared the front hip and got a good arm/disc release. Definitely looking better on the front side.

Yes. Your balance/posture is off in the x-step/stride to plant. You want to push your rear hip more targetward/lead the hip forward off the rear foot in the backswing/Hogan Power Move/Buttwipe/Hershyzer/Door Frame/The Move, similar to what SP said above.

 

[billyjacko]

To add what Sidewinder said about grip, I had the same issue with the four finger power grip where the pressure point was more on the middle finger. You can see in your pick how the index finger is much looser than the three fingers below it. All this does is shortens the final lever which is just the opposite of what you want. I switched to a 3 finger a couple months ago, and have seen great results.

I think you're making great strides man. It's that net! The thing that really helped me with what your asking about the rear hip is this image from my thread

To be able to get that hip moving backwards and pointed towards the target, you have to be in full leverage mode into the backswing (inside your frame.)

Also with your leveraging forward of the top side (shoulder and arm moving forward as the disc is still moving back) think of the rear side doing the exact same thing. I think this is a case of where feels are different than reals. If I think of my body folding like a taco into the backswing (rolling the burrito forward), everything just explodes through. You look like you've got it down with the upper body, but your lower body looks stiff until after you plant.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Tried something different yesterday, just focusing on lower body. Trying to "turn the body with the legs."

I think it threw off the upper body and I didn't implement the swim move like I did in my last update, but I was really just concentrating on the legs. Looks to me like I got off the rear leg better than before, but I could be wrong. Also had a weird toe drag thing in the follow through which I haven't seen myself do.


Still drifting here but maybe got off the rear leg a bit better?



Tried a shorter cross step here and looks like it may have helped somewhat with my nagging drifting left issue.



Screencaps: https://imgur.com/a/JFkeT

 

[slowplastic]

Second one is way better IMO.

The toe drag in the first video is from taking a wide step and it drifting to the left of the teepad. I've done it for a long time. When you are balanced more upright and striding down the teepad, you end up balanced on the brace and the left foot kind of gets more in the air like in the second video. I don't really know the reasoning other than better balance, I think the hip clears back easier instead of colliding/getting caught closed, the same thing happens to me. Drift left in the plant step = toe drag.

But the second clip looks much better to me. At this slow/deliberate of a pace the strides should be short like this. I'm a little concerned your right arm collapses slightly? I can't tell from this angle. Can you get a view from the side/face-on as well next time?

I am also a little concerned that you are pushing the rear foot kind of toe-down and spinning it out rather than leveraging off the instep heel-first. Your spine is still tilting to the right side of the tee pad a touch during the throw, I think it's from not fully settling the lower spine onto the brace leg so you are fully balanced to swing from there. Rear instep should leverage the rear side targetward, in the "from behind" backward type of feeling.

I'm doing my best interpretation though, SW22 can probably spot what's happening a bit better.

 

[slowplastic]

Tried something different yesterday, just focusing on lower body. Trying to "turn the body with the legs."

To be clear, are you meaning turn the body back in the backswing with the legs, or use the legs to turn the body into the throw?

The legs should feel like they turn the body farther back into the rear hip which allows your shoulders to turn farther back. But then they should just leverage you forward, linearly to the target, and when you catch your weight on the closed plant leg the rotation will just begin. When I think about rotation I lose power and get a higher % of griplocks from opening up too much.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Second one is way better IMO.

The toe drag in the first video is from taking a wide step and it drifting to the left of the teepad. I've done it for a long time. When you are balanced more upright and striding down the teepad, you end up balanced on the brace and the left foot kind of gets more in the air like in the second video. I don't really know the reasoning other than better balance, I think the hip clears back easier instead of colliding/getting caught closed, the same thing happens to me. Drift left in the plant step = toe drag.

But the second clip looks much better to me. At this slow/deliberate of a pace the strides should be short like this. I'm a little concerned your right arm collapses slightly? I can't tell from this angle. Can you get a view from the side/face-on as well next time?

I am also a little concerned that you are pushing the rear foot kind of toe-down and spinning it out rather than leveraging off the instep heel-first. Your spine is still tilting to the right side of the tee pad a touch during the throw, I think it's from not fully settling the lower spine onto the brace leg so you are fully balanced to swing from there. Rear instep should leverage the rear side targetward, in the "from behind" backward type of feeling.

I'm doing my best interpretation though, SW22 can probably spot what's happening a bit better.

Thanks, I thought the second one looked better too.

Yes, I definitely have issues with hugging, getting my shoulders ahead of my elbow. I reckon I could see a lot more accuracy and power by getting the elbow forward/keeping a wider upper arm angle.

When you say leveraging heel-first, do you mean that you think I'm pushing down with the toes, instead of forward with the instep? That certainly could be.

To be clear, are you meaning turn the body back in the backswing with the legs

Yes

 

[slowplastic]

When you say leveraging heel-first, do you mean that you think I'm pushing down with the toes, instead of forward with the instep? That certainly could be.

Yes, but it often feels like forward with the knee what you are doing. Thinking "forward" with the knee, which turns the front of the rear thigh targetward, often results in a toe down/heel up rotation of the lower leg, so the knee ends up moving down and facing forward rather than actually driving forward in space toward the target.

You should think about instep push forward with toes the last thing to leave instead of flexing your shoe at the toes. To me it feels more like driving or leveraging the inside/side of the knee targetwards, rather than trying to get the front of the knee cap targetwards.

 

[Lumberjack504]

You should think about instep push forward with toes the last thing to leave instead of flexing your shoe at the toes. To me it feels more like driving or leveraging the inside/side of the knee targetwards, rather than trying to get the front of the knee cap targetwards.

So this leverage move is sequenced right around the same time as the top of the backswing/toes down?

 

[slowplastic]

So this leverage move is sequenced right around the same time as the top of the backswing/toes down?

Yeah, I would say a good way to feel it is in the door frame drill. This is kind of the most stretched out position with toes down, huge internal load into the rear hip, and the rear instep/inner knee leveraging through the hip and targetward underneath/behind you. The leverage is always intended to be this way, so it's kind of "always" there with how you are balancing, but the maximum point is sequenced as you describe, at least IME.

The thing to remember though is although this is when you'll feel at most ready to move forward, DO NOT go 100% at this point. This is a problem that can lead to the upper arm collapse as you have experienced. You should leverage smoothly forward, catch on the brace closed, and think about the hit point. Get to the hit point with the the wide upper arm and maintain leverage through this hit point. It's not about getting to this stretched out position and then trying to get forward with 100% speed instantly.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Have a question for SW/SP/you other form gurus about knee bend. How much should the knees bend throughout the x-step/swing? In the above videos from the other day it "felt" like they were super bent compared to my previous iterations, but of course feel ain't always real. I wanna say I read SW somewhere say it's like landing from a jump, should be bent some, but not too much.

I'm not sure what was helping me leave the rear foot better there but if it's a better path than before then I want to try to fine tune it and engrain it.

 

[slowplastic]

Knee bend is an issue I have with the rear leg too..I don't bend it enough and I end up more on top of the knee rather than having the leg a bit more bent so I'm on top of the foot with the knee just supporting me.

What I will say is do not bend the rear knee more during the X-step. You need to let the leg stride underneath you in the X-step, then you need to end up on top of it and turn into that rear hip. If you bend the knee additionally during this stage you won't have the same tension/load internally into the rear hip.

 

[sidewinder22]