Generate more spin

[DiscJunkie]

Mickey Mantle once said that the way he learned to swing a bat was by tossing up cherries and hitting them in his back yard.
It would just be reasonable to conclude that anyone who does this will be as good as MM. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The idea of getting a bunch of OS drivers and throwing them as hard as you can to learn distance is just plain BAD ADVICE!!
Let's start with the idea that EagleM is a magnificently talented young DG'er who has risen to the top of his profession through hard work and throwing OS drivers "until his arm fell off". I'll buy that.
But to suggest that advice for my 60-year-old body is just nuts.
It would do more harm than good. Period.

As I get older, I find that the harder I throw, the more damage I inflict upon my aging body.
My improvements have been through hard work at smoothing and improving my form.

Not trying to start a flame war, just can't disappointed that I'm not 18 anymore.

 

[Tudubs]

What does firming up on the front side mean? Is it what sidewinder said that I'm doing wrong with the hershyzer drill?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

https://youtu.be/hwBylijfbZk

https://youtu.be/Ip9kRui-ddg

Common term in golf and baseball, means the plant leg sets a strong axis of rotation and you carry momentum around that.

 

[XC_Eddy]

Spin typically increases with speed due to leveraging the disc. Typically trying to increase spin by curling the wrist slows speed down.

This seems to be true. However, some people seem to have a way of getting spin and therefore distance while throwing with less arm speed. For example, Bradley Williams. Here he is throwing 10mph less than the Crush boys, but going almost as far. Is there something about his form that adds more spin on the disc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXZlfK2hvbc

 

[sidewinder22]

This seems to be true. However, some people seem to have a way of getting spin and therefore distance while throwing with less arm speed. For example, Bradley Williams. Here he is throwing 10mph less than the Crush boys, but going almost as far. Is there something about his form that adds more spin on the disc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXZlfK2hvbc

You are assuming the difference has to do with spin. There might be some slight difference, but we don't actually know the spin rate or ratio on any of these throws. I wouldn't be surprised if the crushers actually have a higher spin rate/RPM than BW if we had measurements. I'd bet the spin ratios are pretty similar on these golf shots.

The real world difference we can actually see is in the disc stability and trajectory/flight. BW is throwing a significantly higher trajectory with less stable discs, so they actually glide out downward further from the higher apex and less stable discs don't fade into the ground as fast.

You would be mistaken to think that BW would be close to those guys in an open field or on the same line with same disc.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

You are assuming the difference has to do with spin.

100% Agree

What affects distance:

1. Speed of Disc
2. Height / Trajectory
3. Disc Angles: Nose up or down & hyzer or anhyzer
4. Disc Characteristics: Speed, Glide, Turn & Fade

That's what you can change to see the difference between a BW 60mph shot going the same distance as an Eagle 76mph shot.

BW Shot
1. Speed: 60mph
2. Height: 18'
3. Disc Angle: Nose down flat shot
4. Higher glide, more turn

Eagle Shot
1. Speed 76mph
2. Height: 10'
3. Disc Angle: Hyzer Release
2. Low glide, zero turn

This goes back to the difference between throwing max power with an OS disc will only go 300' (firebird) which requires little to no touch and won't go long VERSUS a teebird or Roc that does require some touch and can more easily turn and go long on you.

Glideless discs are a very powerful tool in being accurate with ranging shots.

 

[DiscFifty]

The idea of getting a bunch of OS drivers and throwing them as hard as you can to learn distance is just plain BAD ADVICE!!

Try it for a few months, and you'll see. 16 or 60 (I'm pushing 60), it will help. Abd btw..it's not to "learn" distance, if you have bad form, this will just help you throw further..with bad form. It's to "add distance" not "learn distance".

Let's start with the idea that EagleM is a magnificently talented young DG'er who has risen to the top of his profession through hard work and throwing OS drivers "until his arm fell off". I'll buy that.

According to him, he wasn't "magnificently talented" at that point. He just wanted to throw far.

But to suggest that advice for my 60-year-old body is just nuts. It would do more harm than good. Period. As I get older, I find that the harder I throw, the more damage I inflict upon my aging body. My improvements have been through hard work at smoothing and improving my form. Not trying to start a flame war, just can't disappointed that I'm not 18 anymore.

No flame war intended either. That is unfortunate, I have a bad knee due to rupturing an achilles tendon, but my arms are fine and I can throw hard all day long. Stretching and weight lifting are vital in our age brackets. But let's be real..in our divisions (grandmaster, sr. grand, etc) we don't need Eagle distance, we just need 320+ to be competitive because in our division(s) it's all about the short game.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

According to him, he wasn't "magnificently talented" at that point. He just wanted to throw far.

He was out throwing nearly everybody in Denver by the time he was 14. It was annoying.

 

[Hoeschel]

100% Agree

What affects distance:

1. Speed of Disc
2. Height / Trajectory
3. Disc Angles: Nose up or down & hyzer or anhyzer
4. Disc Characteristics: Speed, Glide, Turn & Fade

What about OAT? Does it only affect stability, allowing you to throw discs with more glide, or does it have an effect on its own?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

What about OAT? Does it only affect stability, allowing you to throw discs with more glide, or does it have an effect on its own?

Watch this: https://youtu.be/XPUuF_dECVI?t=2759

My understanding, and all caveats are declared now, is that spin angular momentum would have your disc maintain it's release angles. Ignoring the flight characteristics of the disc, your disc stays locked into it's angle.

Adding weight as he does in the video to the axis of rotation causes the spin angular momentum to chase the torque, which would I believe cause the disc to barrel roll if you could continuously add that weight.

I would argue that we CANNOT continuously add weight (we've long since let go), what we do is add wobble. Because wobble on a flying disc would have your torque moving from one side of the spinning body to the other, the spin angular momentum chases the torque one direction, then the other - effectively canceling each other out in regards to amount of turn added to the disc.

What I believe it DOES do, is greatly disrupt the air flow around the disc. My very limited understanding of wobble in the system is that disrupting the airflow, like dimples on a golf-ball can improve the objects ability to cut through the air - which would keep the disc moving in HSS flight characteristics longer than it would otherwise (in most cases causing more turn).

The stability of the disc should steady the wobble over time, again because we have removed the weight from the axis of rotation as soon as we let go of the disc.

TLDR; wobble adds dimples to your golf ball and would be a horrible way to try to control the flight characteristics... "doh, I should have added more wobble to that shot!"

 

[gammaxgoblin]

Watch this: https://youtu.be/XPUuF_dECVI?t=2759

My understanding, and all caveats are declared now, is that spin angular momentum would have your disc maintain it's release angles. Ignoring the flight characteristics of the disc, your disc stays locked into it's angle.

Adding weight as he does in the video to the axis of rotation causes the spin angular momentum to chase the torque, which would I believe cause the disc to barrel roll if you could continuously add that weight.

I would argue that we CANNOT continuously add weight (we've long since let go), what we do is add wobble. Because wobble on a flying disc would have your torque moving from one side of the spinning body to the other, the spin angular momentum chases the torque one direction, then the other - effectively canceling each other out in regards to amount of turn added to the disc.

What I believe it DOES do, is greatly disrupt the air flow around the disc. My very limited understanding of wobble in the system is that disrupting the airflow, like dimples on a golf-ball can improve the objects ability to cut through the air - which would keep the disc moving in HSS flight characteristics longer than it would otherwise (in most cases causing more turn).

The stability of the disc should steady the wobble over time, again because we have removed the weight from the axis of rotation as soon as we let go of the disc.

TLDR; wobble adds dimples to your golf ball and would be a horrible way to try to control the flight characteristics... "doh, I should have added more wobble to that shot!"

In staring at wiggins in slo mo, there is something which I rarely, or never see pointed out. Its probably not pointed out because it is likely a very advanced tweak, im supposing. Check out the difference in rotation between his hips and shoulders. Maybe this is what the left arm maneuver is designed to do...to amplify the tension around the spine created by the shoulders lagging behind the hips/waist. I would guess there is a lot of tendon bounce generated from this. What I am always reading is that the shoulders and hips should be parallel.

Wiggins hips are done, in a slightly open position while his shoulders are still closed, as closed as they were at max closure. From there his torso/shoulders are catching up to hips, releasing all of the tension and then the shoulders catch up to the hips at or near release. Thoughts?

 

[davidb]

It has nothing to do with good or bad form, that's something entirely different. But slower discs need more spin, fasters discs need more arm speed. The drills I mentioned will help with both.

What do you mean exactly by "drills." How many times a day and what discs were you throwing, and is each throw full power?

 

[DiscJunkie]

Try it for a few months, and you'll see. 16 or 60 (I'm pushing 60), it will help. Abd btw..it's not to "learn" distance, if you have bad form, this will just help you throw further..with bad form. It's to "add distance" not "learn distance".



According to him, he wasn't "magnificently talented" at that point. He just wanted to throw far.



No flame war intended either. That is unfortunate, I have a bad knee due to rupturing an achilles tendon, but my arms are fine and I can throw hard all day long. Stretching and weight lifting are vital in our age brackets. But let's be real..in our divisions (grandmaster, sr. grand, etc) we don't need Eagle distance, we just need 320+ to be competitive because in our division(s) it's all about the short game.

Whether or not he realizes he is magnificently talented, I've seen him play. I think magnificently talented is an accurate description.

As far as the whole "get some OS drivers and throw until your arm falls off", I will hold off judgment. In my practice sessions, I try to limit my throws to less than 250-300, and usually throw ~150-200 throws.
So I'm reasonably healthy, but not sure I can talk myself into that.

 

[mickeyjhon]

helpful tips

 

[DiscFifty]

As far as the whole "get some OS drivers and throw until your arm falls off", I will hold off judgment. In my practice sessions, I try to limit my throws to less than 250-300, and usually throw ~150-200 throws.
So I'm reasonably healthy, but not sure I can talk myself into that.

I'm an old dude as well, I don't throw till my arm falls off, or even come close, lol.. but the main thing is imop is to understand the difference what it feels like to throw an understable disc compared to a very overstable disc, and try to make them fly far. I can stand still my understable discs 300ft, it feels effortless. If I throw my gator or firebird with that same "feeling", those discs aren't going further than probably 200ft or so. lol. I think even if you close out a session with a few os throws, at full power, it can help long term.

 

[DiscFifty]

What do you mean exactly by "drills." How many times a day and what discs were you throwing, and is each throw full power?

Mentioned it earlier but..here's another take on it....

Get cones, markers, measurements, etc, and always keep track of your distance. It's vital for your mind set, to have accurate records how far you are throwing so you can always try to beat it.

Alternate days between putters and very overstable discs. If possible, try to get 2-3 of the same disc (or more), it makes it easier to track progress. Throw as many times as you want to each session.

When throwing putters you'll find yourself adjusting to a happy medium between arm speed and snap for max distance. Slower discs imop need more spin to fly further, so it's not just about throwing them as fast as possible. So by learning to throw putters further you should be learning how to put more spin on a disc.

When throwing overstable discs (whatever severely meat hooks for you, for me I'm throwing firebirds) you're going to need more arm speed to make them fly further, so by tracking your progress over time you should develop more arm speed.

I don't think this is the way to eventually throw as far as Eagle lol. But I 100% think this is a tool you can use to learn how to put more spin on the disc and get more arm speed. For me personally it greatly...improved my ability to throw slower discs like putters and mids and not only did it improve my max distance with drivers, it improved my distance consistency. Here's a better way to understand the long term effects, I'm throwing at 70-80% power to achieve the same distance I was getting at 90%+ power. Resulting in huge gains in control.