Have you heard about our friend The Whip?

[Lastchancer88]

So there are multiple older threads about the whip that feel fairly finished and I still wanna talk about it. Or hear it talked about. Either way... Here we have what I would say are two examples of the whip in all it's glory. I'm not an opponent to the reachback, but I think sometimes the "super full all the way reachback for max distance" is pushed a little too hard for people who clearly have much bigger issues. There's something to be said about putting more energy into an inefficient machine not helping etc. The whip allows for a very naturally balanced shot by keeping things more central and focusing on that redirection and disc pivot. Am I far enough down the rabbit hole yet? Here's Simon (of course) in his supposed powered down form.

First a control midrange shot with good distance for the effort exerted (granting it's also downhill). Notice the lack of a real reachback. His elbow/shoulders don't do any of the normal things we expect from form studies. Shoulders barely turn, elbow is never really backwards past body. His left arm kind snaps down to "base" the whip, and then it uncoils through to the disc from there. I would put money down that on this hole I would struggle to throw a mid to that basket and he's doing it with this upshot looking form:



And here used in a distance scenario. Longer more traditional reachback, but still very bent arm for most of it. Very similar in most ways to the shorter shot. He always emphasizes that slingshot idea and his arm clearly only spends a brief moment extended. You can see the wing drop and the disc come inwards towards the body before it's redirected outward. Still a good distance to exertion ratio:



The whip and power pocket correlate but are not the same and I think that's important to say. I can find stills of myself in the power pocket, but not getting the bonuses the whip gives because my arm releases on a shallower arc pulling the front of the disc without the good redirection/disc pivot boost. SW has definitely said all this before in multiple ways. The whip works more efficient/accurate if it's a wide/narrow/wide arc that the disc is redirected faster and more forcefully on. That is what I'm seeing here with Simon (GG, tons of others). Simon really drops that wing down at the start of the whip, bringing it in closer and then it redirects and moves away from the arm/body before release. Efficient and scalable.

full vid:

 

[sidewinder22]

It's a combination of "whip effect" of the levers, and "rubber band effect" of the muscles/tendons/fascia.

IMO it's harder to crack a shorter whip, you have to have better timing and a quicker arm speed and Simon has that timing and quick rubber band effect from years of practice building the muscle/tendon/fascia, that new players don't have yet.

There is a sweet spot on the length of the whip and a lot players do over reach and tense up and get off balance leaning back further. It should be relaxed and comfortable and balanced. Patience is the hardest part to learn IMO, everyone wants to start going too fast/hard from the top of the backswing and spin out/muscle up.

 

[Jazzfudge]

Scott Stokely has a nice video where he talks about Snap and The Whip effect
A key point he mentions is that the whip sequence starts with your plant foot hits the ground.

https://youtu.be/KP3F7qMxTCs

Btw, how do I embed the YouTube video correctly?

 

[Jazzfudge]

Ok, found the solution, here it is embedded correctly...

 

[SuperWookie]

I've always been confused/interested by this as well. I see Simon throw like this ALL THE TIME over the years, same with Seppo (and a few others I can't recall right off the top of my head). Limited, shorter or almost no reachback/backswing, and yet they are two of the longest throwers out there. Obviously as they start throwing closer to max distances for the disc, they are both going to turn further back to get more distance, but we are constantly told to have a nice long easy going backswing or reachback? Make sure you completely turn your body, and other such things. Yet here they are not doing that and still throwing a mile with ease. So I think this would be a great discussion point for this forum!

In Simon's method, it looks like a little hitch right before he gets to the pocket, and his disc tilts down and inward towards his body (Eagle has the same quick tilt right as the disc comes into his body), and then instantly goes back flat and ejects out really fast. I've noticed him throwing like this quite often over the years, but especially the last 2 years or so. And then this video really shows it well in slow motion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjGxUnyUzZE. I really think that the off arm movement of Simon and Seppo (and I'm sure others that have a good off arm move) have a pretty big part in this "easy" distance type throw. They both really get their off arm back, or up back and away, and really use it like a swim move DOWN to help put additional energy and speed into their throw. Which is just another example of creating a whip with your body. With the other great side affect of creating a very tight center of mass, which helps with balance. Since I can't throw far like any good pro can, I can't say HOW much % of distance that adds, but it seems like it adds a good amount.

It also shows you that they are MANY different ways to throw the disc far and that no one way of teaching or methods is "the best" or "correct." Another player I just thought of who throws somewhat similar is Tristen Tanner. Although he doesn't "look" like he has a big reachback or backswing, he does actually turn his shoulders pretty far back. It's just that he has such a wide rail type throw, and the disc stays way out from his body most of the throw, only coming in at the last second, thus redirecting it at the last second putting a ton of force onto the disc. Which then obviously allows him to throw far with seemingly little effort.

Something Mike C, HUB and others have talked about here and there over the years. The idea of a wide rail, only putting lots of force into your grip at the last second, allowing you to get more energy into the disc, and having to only hold on for a split second, as opposed to slightly more time. Ensuring you can actually hold the disc through a really hard redirect. Allowing for big distance. But the one thing they all do the same though, is transfer their weight efficiently with amazing timing and the disc in the pocket with their hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible. Something Simon is doing here very efficiently!

I remember when I learned how to hit a stinger in golf and then started using a version of it all the time for other shots, because it was SO much easier to control the shot and take out so many variables from a full length swing. Being 6'8", I have a LOT of lever and things that can and will go wrong by the time I get back to the ball, haha. So once I figured out I could hit the ball just about as far, but with way more control, I rarely used a full backswing in golf after that. And guess what happened to my scores? Way down and I started playing VERY good golf way more consistently. I'd only use a full backswing on really long max distance shots or where I needed to get the ball up much higher, but mostly used this new found shorter/controlled swing I had figured out. And yet I could still hit the ball just about as far, but with way more control. But that was only possible because of the fact that I had learned about lag, and how it works in the swing. Which is the same thing I'm still chasing and trying to figure out in disc golf. Not having a club or racket or bat makes that feeling VERY VERY hard to figure out. And so far it's proving to be one of the most difficult sports movements I've ever tried to learn. haha.

And when I see Simon throw like this (above), I feel like it's how I would use my stinger like swing in golf. It's slightly powered down, but VERY controlled, and just about the same distance. And usually a little or a lot lower shot. But It's that perfect silky timing Simon has along with the VERY quick redirect of the disc at the last second, that allows him to throw so far, with such little effort. And something I'm still not able to to do myself. But I know intrinsically that he IS doing it, just need to keep working and practicing till I can actually do it, haha. Hopefully more knowledgeable people can talk more to this point, as I find it fascinating. Great post :clap:

 

[RandyC]

Look at his legs/hips/butt, there is the secret sauce.

 

[semisensei]

What strikes me about Simon's footwork is that he seems to have an exaggerated slow stride compared to his x-step, and then he explodes at the plant. He's soooo relaxed through the stride. What is his cue for applying force to the swing? Would you say it's right when his front toes touch the ground that he pushes hard with his left foot laterally into the plant, starting the kinetic sequence?

 

[bsammons]

What strikes me about Simon's footwork is that he seems to have an exaggerated slow stride compared to his x-step, and then he explodes at the plant. He's soooo relaxed through the stride. What is his cue for applying force to the swing? Would you say it's right when his front toes touch the ground that he pushes hard with his left foot laterally into the plant, starting the kinetic sequence?

Left foot doesn't start the kinetic sequence, left foot strides momentum forward and acts as a spring/potential energy builder. Simon has smooth acceleration throughout his sequence, has some of the smoothest form there is. He builds up kinetic energy slowly as he strides, builds up potential energy in the backswing and then unloads the spring/begins kinetic sequence once he's anchored to the ground with his brace. It looks effortless because it's smooth acceleration that's always in control.

 

[sidewinder22]

What is his cue for applying force to the swing?

Ground reaction force from heel plant - Crush the Can! It's more automated than a cue to activate.

 

[semisensei]

Patience is the hardest part to learn IMO, everyone wants to start going too fast/hard from the top of the backswing and spin out/muscle up.

When you say "patience," do you mean within the throw itself? As in, accelerating more gradually from the top of the backswing rather than all at once?

Or patience in a long term way, learning proper mechanics at slower speeds before juicing it to max effort for distance?

 

[bsammons]

When you say "patience," do you mean within the throw itself? As in, accelerating more gradually from the top of the backswing rather than all at once?

Or patience in a long term way, learning proper mechanics at slower speeds before juicing it to max effort for distance?

Think of the throw as a bow and arrow, assisted by your run up.

The run up is just that - a run up. You're building kinetic energy. The pulling back of the bow, that's where the real power is. The run up is simply adding a small amount of kinetic energy to the main event. The issue most people have is they think the kinetic energy build up is where the power is at, which leads to too much speed going into their sequence and blowing past the brace. Like running while holding a bow and arrow and then pushing the arrow ahead of you, rather than pulling the string back and letting elasticity and mechanics do the work. The backswing is the pulling back of the string. The sequence is letting go of the string. The run up is just adding some amount of kinetic energy into the throw, it isn't the main course. You have to be patient and allow the mechanics to work when the foot is anchored to the ground, not try to rush it and fail to use your levers and mechanics.

 

[RowingBoats]

Think of the throw as a bow and arrow, assisted by your run up.

The run up is just that - a run up. You're building kinetic energy. The pulling back of the bow, that's where the real power is. The run up is simply adding a small amount of kinetic energy to the main event. The issue most people have is they think the kinetic energy build up is where the power is at, which leads to too much speed going into their sequence and blowing past the brace. Like running while holding a bow and arrow and then pushing the arrow ahead of you, rather than pulling the string back and letting elasticity and mechanics do the work. The backswing is the pulling back of the string. The sequence is letting go of the string. The run up is just adding some amount of kinetic energy into the throw, it isn't the main course. You have to be patient and allow the mechanics to work when the foot is anchored to the ground, not try to rush it and fail to use your levers and mechanics.

Man disc golf forums lead to the weirdest, best literature.

 

[sidewinder22]

When you say "patience," do you mean within the throw itself? As in, accelerating more gradually from the top of the backswing rather than all at once?

Or patience in a long term way, learning proper mechanics at slower speeds before juicing it to max effort for distance?

Both really.

 

[FulaFirren]

Think of the throw as a bow and arrow, assisted by your run up.

The run up is just that - a run up. You're building kinetic energy. The pulling back of the bow, that's where the real power is. The run up is simply adding a small amount of kinetic energy to the main event. The issue most people have is they think the kinetic energy build up is where the power is at, which leads to too much speed going into their sequence and blowing past the brace. Like running while holding a bow and arrow and then pushing the arrow ahead of you, rather than pulling the string back and letting elasticity and mechanics do the work. The backswing is the pulling back of the string. The sequence is letting go of the string. The run up is just adding some amount of kinetic energy into the throw, it isn't the main course. You have to be patient and allow the mechanics to work when the foot is anchored to the ground, not try to rush it and fail to use your levers and mechanics.

The run up doesn't just add additional velocity (as if you were doing a standstill on a moving platform). It gives you more momentum to brace against. Obviously it's mostly wasted for most casual players and makes it harder to find the lag/timing. It's the same with people using massive lower body movements while putting. They try to use the forward movement to add directly to the throw instead of transferring the momentum from the forward movement into the pendulum.

 

[seedlings]

Just came across this guys videos. He has experience coaching basketball technique (or something like that), and started playing disc golf with Covid. He says he has DIY form copying Drew, Paul and Simon. Anyway, in this clip he talks about whipping the disc at full reach back. I have felt this but don't recall anyone talking much about it the last year or so. Fits well this thread.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Just came across this guys videos. He has experience coaching basketball technique (or something like that), and started playing disc golf with Covid. He says he has DIY form copying Drew, Paul and Simon. Anyway, in this clip he talks about whipping the disc at full reach back. I have felt this but don't recall anyone talking much about it the last year or so. Fits well this thread.

Looks like he has another video out just today about SW22's swim move. But a little bit of connection with it to the oblique sling. I'm really starting to like his videos. Looks like one of the rare ones that figured it out themselves, but now he's trying really hard to explain what he's able to do.

 

[auzcar]

Just came across this guys videos. He has experience coaching basketball technique (or something like that), and started playing disc golf with Covid. He says he has DIY form copying Drew, Paul and Simon. Anyway, in this clip he talks about whipping the disc at full reach back. I have felt this but don't recall anyone talking much about it the last year or so. Fits well this thread.

I didn't know about this channel before but have watched a few videos now and I think he's emphasizing a few points that I feel should have much more focus when teaching form.

I'm a big advocate of teaching a "feeling", basically getting the player to feel how a movement is supposed to feel. In disc golf I think a lot of players tense up and haven't grasped the concept of a loose arm, redirection and whip. Usually I think there's too much focus on small definite details in the form and not enough on the physical/athletic part of the sport. If that makes any sense.

 

[Phathatter]

In the first gif, Simon actually does rotate his shoulders pretty significantly--his throwing shoulder stays pretty still, but watch his left shoulder--he pushes it forward to almost even with the throwing shoulder (a la door frame drill). It is only there a brief instant. He may not reach the disc back, and he does not rotate as far as the full rip, but he moves more than it appears if you only watch the throwing arm.

 

[Lastchancer88]

In the first gif, Simon actually does rotate his shoulders pretty significantly--his throwing shoulder stays pretty still, but watch his left shoulder--he pushes it forward to almost even with the throwing shoulder (a la door frame drill). It is only there a brief instant. He may not reach the disc back, and he does not rotate as far as the full rip, but he moves more than it appears if you only watch the throwing arm.

Forward yes, but backward not really. My point was that he barely winds up for that throw. The "whip" technique does most of the work for his putter and shorter mid throws.

 

[Lastchancer88]

The definitive resource for all things hwhihp (must be pronounced as such )



I also am now seeing a clear relation between the whip and the figure 8 pattern SW posted about recently.

Can't get enough of this vid. Thanks to the Overthrow guys for doing it for sure.