Help: Moving the extension forward

[HyzerUniBomber]

Hey guys, would love some input with a guy that worked with yesterday who is a lurker here (hello!).

Background Scenario: Player for 4-5 yrs, can throw mids 300-350' with a 1-step.

He can really pop a disc hard and far, but his arc is starting right at the left shoulder and is not extending forward enough to get the benefits of a weight shift. Think a "very good shoulder spinner."

The core problem is that his mind KNOWS that his ingrained motion good results.

I tried for about 90 minutes to slow things down and adjust the track to take advantage of the physics - forcing him to minimize muscling and opening too soon. I could watch him sneaking back to muscling up to pop the disc further and I'd see the arc starting too left pec.

Ultimately we could both agree that his timing is off, but I was really struggling to find a way to break those ingrained movements! Has anybody had a drill, motion, explanation that really helped them click with getting the disc into the power pocket with the shoulders closed?

Keep in mind, he knows what he's supposed to do - but the body isn't listening.

My suggestion was to do it at 2mph over and over trying to learn the shape of the motion and try to get that to stick.

Curious what has worked for others.

 

[mhough]

Subscribing to this thread. I've been living it for 20 years. I think this is the biggest problem in my form. I've been lurking and field working to correct, but progress is slow. Without a good forward extension the best I can do at age 46 is about 260 feet of power with a mid and 300-310 with a US driver like an beat Wraith.

 

[slowplastic]

I don't think you can change the position or shape of the arc without fixing posture or body positions that lead to it. The arc happens there because that's where his body is putting him, in his currently most powerful position. I'd guess something before the arc is slightly off too, be it step angle or balance.

Basically what I'm saying is, the way that I look at it now you can't just "change the arc" or arm position and expect better power but with the same body positions (that arc was happening for a reason). Something a bit more fundamental has to change to move the form towards the pro level balance, which results in the correct arc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Full on Swedish - Linus Astrom style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KSmCjlG0wY#t=1m43s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs#t=1m4s

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I don't think you can change the position or shape of the arc without fixing posture or body positions that lead to it. The arc happens there because that's where his body is putting him, in his currently most powerful position. I'd guess something before the arc is slightly off too, be it step angle or balance.

Basically what I'm saying is, the way that I look at it now you can't just "change the arc" or arm position and expect better power but with the same body positions (that arc was happening for a reason). Something a bit more fundamental has to change to move the form towards the pro level balance, which results in the correct arc.

I know you're right smack in that change (or you were at the last form review). Was there a change that helped you or is it still a shifting change?

I think you're 100% right, I guess I was hoping there'd be a way to fix the arc without trying to rework the whole enchilada. I think SW's also right in that some folks start developing a more swedish style and find the whole arm whip clicks earlier in their development...

How you load in with the shoulders closed is too big of a component to try to adjust after the fact.

 

[rhatton1]

Get him to focus on the Hit point/contact point, not the throw , nothing more than where it needs to be. Then put marks on the ground below where his hand should be at full extension as the disc is pivoting.

It should force him to go later/deeper and swing out away from the body, currently he will be opening that lead shoulder and getting late rounding with the hit point further right and not quite as far forward as it needs to be.

Having a visual cue on the ground should help force him to better positions.

Or even better, put a mark on the ground for his plant foot (you need to make sure he doesn't try to change his feet to cheat this) and hold a flag out at the point you want his contact point to be at, then get him to hit the flag as the disc pivots. If he's opening his shoulder early he won't be able to, he will come across the front of it, it's a tiny difference (less than a foot) but should force his body over and close his shoulder later - it's basically an easier version to correct what I'm talking about here, rounding mark 2 - https://youtu.be/6hjonbKLVUg?t=2m11s

 

[scoopa]

Have him hit the flag with his elbow.

 

[slowplastic]

I know you're right smack in that change (or you were at the last form review). Was there a change that helped you or is it still a shifting change?

I think you're 100% right, I guess I was hoping there'd be a way to fix the arc without trying to rework the whole enchilada. I think SW's also right in that some folks start developing a more swedish style and find the whole arm whip clicks earlier in their development...

How you load in with the shoulders closed is too big of a component to try to adjust after the fact.

I haven't had time to work on form recently, but when it clicked it felt very different to before. I found that striding at the target (rather than being too closed), while turning back later helped set me up. I also focused on keeping my dynamic balance near my plant foot toes, which let the power pocket happen under my chin.

From there the disc just happened to swing under my chin/shoulder and then out front. It happened later than normal, even though I wasn't concentrating on that. I actually had some finger pain from the first several throws because I was clamping down my grip at my normal time, but the disc ejection was a splitsecond later than normal...grip and ejection didn't line up and it caused some sharp pain in my finger initially.

But basically I autopiloted the stride direction and new balance point, and focused on a late reach back and a swing pocket under my chin/over my foot. Hopefully I can take this advice and have it work out again.

 

[rhatton1]

Have him hit the flag with his elbow.

That's what Blake T used to do wasn't it? hold his hand up, have you elbow the hand and then move it to where the back of the hand should hit. You've dragged up some distant memories - I might go DGR reading again!

 

[scoopa]

That's what Blake T used to do wasn't it? hold his hand up, have you elbow the hand and then move it to where the back of the hand should hit. You've dragged up some distant memories - I might go DGR reading again!

Yes. I was looking for that quote - couldn't find it.

Beto had said something similar to "Pretend there is a ball on the end of your elbow and you are trying to throw the ball."

and of course - chop your elbow and backhand the midget.

 

[rhatton1]

Beto had said something similar to "Pretend there is a ball on the end of your elbow and you are trying to throw the ball."

I don't remember that one, love the concept though as a visualisation!

Always felt sorry for that midget

 

[zj1002]

I got one for ya!

Find an object like a post, pole, open door or wall corner. Whatever you choose needs to be shoulder high and have room in front of and behind for this to work.

Set up in an athletic throw with the lead shoulder/foot on the pole/post/door. Leave 6 inches to a foot between you and the pole/post/door, whatever is comfortable for ya. You can do it with a disc in your hand too. Work on moving through the throw until the elbow passes the post/door. At this point the hand should be getting close post/door. From here you can work on opening the elbow/hand forward without hitting the post/door.

This has really helped a lot of people I've taught to understand how important it is to get the elbow/hand into a power position to be able to open up forward. If you open the shoulder/elbow too soon, obviously the hand will hit the post/door.

Let me know if none of that makes sense and I'll try to draw it up!

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I got one for ya!

Find an object like a post, pole, open door or wall corner. Whatever you choose needs to be shoulder high and have room in front of and behind for this to work.

Set up in an athletic throw with the lead shoulder/foot on the pole/post/door. Leave 6 inches to a foot between you and the pole/post/door, whatever is comfortable for ya. You can do it with a disc in your hand too. Work on moving through the throw until the elbow passes the post/door. At this point the hand should be getting close post/door. From here you can work on opening the elbow/hand forward without hitting the post/door.

This has really helped a lot of people I've taught to understand how important it is to get the elbow/hand into a power position to be able to open up forward. If you open the shoulder/elbow too soon, obviously the hand will hit the post/door.

Let me know if none of that makes sense and I'll try to draw it up!

That's the exact drill I suggested, we used the corner of a building... like you say, it should be a slow process of re-drawing the arc and that will come with a change of posture as well.

Tnx!

 

[TAFL]

Use the cattle prod drill. Jab him with a cattle prod every time he gets it wrong. Yup. That'll straighten it out. XD

 

[46YearOldSlinger]

I got one for ya!

Find an object like a post, pole, open door or wall corner. Whatever you choose needs to be shoulder high and have room in front of and behind for this to work.

Set up in an athletic throw with the lead shoulder/foot on the pole/post/door. Leave 6 inches to a foot between you and the pole/post/door, whatever is comfortable for ya. You can do it with a disc in your hand too. Work on moving through the throw until the elbow passes the post/door. At this point the hand should be getting close post/door. From here you can work on opening the elbow/hand forward without hitting the post/door.

This has really helped a lot of people I've taught to understand how important it is to get the elbow/hand into a power position to be able to open up forward. If you open the shoulder/elbow too soon, obviously the hand will hit the post/door.

Let me know if none of that makes sense and I'll try to draw it up!

I would LOVE to see a video of this drill.

 

[zj1002]

That's the exact drill I suggested, we used the corner of a building... like you say, it should be a slow process of re-drawing the arc and that will come with a change of posture as well.

Tnx!

Awesome! Yeah its a pretty nifty drill you can do much pretty much anywhere. Really is helpful for showing the concept of moving forward with the entire throw. Its also pretty helpful with showing how moving the feet/hips/shoulders can set up the arm in a very tight space.

Another extension of that drill is that I will stand in front of them and kind of "spar" with their lead hand as it extends. I'll hold a disc or something out for them to extend towards at the end of the apex. Mainly because its really easy to open the body too far right as the hips/shoulders spin open. I get them to focus on having the hand reach full extension before their arm swings past their lead leg/shoulder on the follow through.

 

[zj1002]

I would LOVE to see a video of this drill.

I'm pretty bad at taking the time to follow through on videos now that I don't share a workplace with ZAM. Just slowly even getting back into reading DGCR after taking a semi-year haitus. Hopefully these more dedicated guys like HUB can come up with something. They are doing a pretty good job.

 

[slowplastic]

Cool concept, I will try to incorporate it! I know I need to get my reachback to right pec part of my throw a bit cleaner, and also keep the disc in very close.

 

[sidewinder22]

The more I think about this, the more IMO it simply has to do with being balanced forward and tuned in rhythm to your weightshift/gravity. Most people tend to go too fast and miss/don't catch/get ahead of their inertial wave and/or it leaks pressure from poor posture/balance. This is why I recommend swinging back and forth or tossing(not hard) something heavy as sh!t like a sledgehammer using gravity to set the pendulum rhythm inside a dynamic stable posture. You will naturally start to use you body/weight in tune to the rhythm of gravity and the arm takes care of itself as long as you don't precast.

 

[zj1002]

The more I think about this, the more IMO it simply has to do with being balanced forward and tuned in rhythm to your weightshift/gravity. Most people tend to go too fast and miss/don't catch/get ahead of their inertial wave and/or it leaks pressure from poor posture/balance. This is why I recommend swinging back and forth or tossing(not hard) something heavy as sh!t like a sledgehammer using gravity to set the pendulum rhythm inside a dynamic stable posture. You will naturally start to use you body/weight in tune to the rhythm of gravity and the arm takes care of itself as long as you don't precast.

Exactly. That is why I use Feldbergs form(as a concept) when I teach. His pendulum helps people feel that forward movement. It sets the weight on the back foot, and minimizes reach back. Easy to explode from. Its all about being athletic, like not Westbrook athletic, but putting your body in positions that it can execute from. As I always say here - knees bent, on the toes, move forward! Figure out the rest of the timing with practice.