How to mark this lie?

[KniceZ]

I didn't want to highjack the other thread that's discussing tail marking so ....

With the current rules if the thrown disc lands up against a tree - and you want to reuse that disc - where do you put the mini? There's no space between the thrown disc and the tree.

I'm not a serious tournament player so I usually just plant my foot behind the disc and pick it up. :gross:

 

[SonicGuy]

I didn't want to highjack the other thread that's discussing tail marking so ....

With the current rules if the thrown disc lands up against a tree - and you want to reuse that disc - where do you put the mini? There's no space between the thrown disc and the tree.

I'm not a serious tournament player so I usually just plant my foot behind the disc and pick it up. :gross:

Almost positive you can mark the opposite side of the tree, and count the rear of the tree as your lie.

 

[bradharris]

Just place the mini up against the tree in place of the thrown disc. I don't think this scenario is specifically covered in the rules, but common sense can prevail here.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Just place the mini up against the tree in place of the thrown disc. I don't think this scenario is specifically covered in the rules, but common sense can prevail here.

This is how I've seen it played. Not necessarily saying it's right by the letter of the law (er... uh, rule), but I'd give the stink eye to anybody who made a big deal about this. As long as do your best to mark your lie and take a stance on the LOP based on where the thrown disc came to rest, and no nearer to the basket, what more can you realistically expect?

 

[ToddL]

Almost positive you can mark the opposite side of the tree, and count the rear of the tree as your lie.

The rule is the opposite of that.

802.03 E
If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, the player may instead mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

Also you have Q&A #17
QA 17: Marking the Lie of a Disc in a Tree
Q:
Rule 803.08 describes what to do if the playing surface below the disc is "inside a tree", but I'm not sure what that means. Does it refer to the area encompassed by the ground-level branches, or just the trunk?

A:
It refers to the trunk, or any other large solid part where it would be physically impossible to place a marker disc. If there is room to mark your disc directly below, that is what you do. If not, you mark at the first available spot back along the line of play. Applicable Rules: 802.02 Establishing Position; 802.03 Marking the Lie.

I think disc butting up to the backside of the tree would be the same situation as QA17.

 

[eric40817]

^ came in to post this. You mark your lie and take your stance behind the tree where your discs came to rest.

 

[KniceZ]

After doing more reading it seems that 803.01 B also applies.

 

[SonicGuy]

802.03E doesn't apply to this situation. Q&A 17 does though and I am apparently wrong. Curiously that Q&A cites two rules that have nothing to do with the situation...

 

[ToddL]

802.02E doesn't apply 100% to this situation. I was quoting it to refute the way you suggested handling the situation. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can place a mini in front of the tree and use the rear of the tree as your lie. That rule does, however, state the opposite of that: if your disc is in front of the tree, you can put the mini behind the tree and use that as your lie.

And yea, QA17 citing those two rules is a little weird. 802.02 is a very vague reference -- they might as well reference the definition of lie and throw if they're going to go all the way back to the basics. Maybe 802.02C, where they state that a disc coming to rest above the playing surface should be marked directly below the disc. And then 802.03E sort of says that if the disc is resting in a place that makes it impossible to take a stance due to a permanent obstacle, just move the marker backwards. Seems to me like using those two rules would really only get you halfway to QA17's answer. The rest of the answer would probably be a call to the fairness doctrine (801.01A).

 

[SonicGuy]

802.02E doesn't apply 100% to this situation. I was quoting it to refute the way you suggested handling the situation. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can place a mini in front of the tree and use the rear of the tree as your lie. That rule does, however, state the opposite of that: if your disc is in front of the tree, you can put the mini behind the tree and use that as your lie.

I don't know how you refute my way of handling it by quoting a rule that has absolutely nothing to do with the situation. A much better way to refute it was that Q&A which directly refuted me.

The rule you quote has to do with unplayable lies where you cannot physically put your foot down on the line of play within the required distance because the tree is too thick. Of course you would put the marker down behind the tree, to do otherwise would improve your lie. In the case presented putting the marker in front of the tree in no way improves your lie.

I still like my way of handling it better because I never like situations where you have to remove the disc before marking. But the Q&A is clear.

 

[JoakimBL]

Putting your marker infront of the tree would give you and your opponents very little ability to judge if your stance is legal and on the line of play.

 

[SonicGuy]

Putting your marker infront of the tree would give you and your opponents very little ability to judge if your stance is legal and on the line of play.

How big a tree we talking here?

 

[JoakimBL]

How big a tree we talking here?

Well it doesn't really matter, as the rule would be for all trees of all sizes

 

[SonicGuy]

Well it doesn't really matter, as the rule would be for all trees of all sizes

Your objection was to the perception of competitors in judging faults. A mini in front of a three inch tree won't cause that issue.

 

[dtuns]

Dixon Joyers explains this lie from 10:30 on in video https://youtu.be/3LNVPWS60Nc

 

[JoakimBL]

Your objection was to the perception of competitors in judging faults. A mini in front of a three inch tree won't cause that issue.

From a rules perspective it's irrelevant. A tree is a tree if it 3 inches or 3 feet wide. Would you have different rules for different size trees?

 

[PhattD]

Putting your marker infront of the tree would give you and your opponents very little ability to judge if your stance is legal and on the line of play.

This is already an issue when your disc lands in front of a solid obstacle and you're allowed to take your stance behind the object. Stances close to obstacles like that are actually pretty easy to judge because it's almost always a stand and deliver throw. Either way I don't see it being a big enough issue to change the rule.

 

[The Shide]

Dixon Joyers explains this lie from 10:30 on in video https://youtu.be/3LNVPWS60Nc

Yup, this covered it nicely.

 

[Steve West]

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents the player from taking a legal stance behind the marker disc, the player may instead mark the lie by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play.

Well it doesn't really matter, as the rule would be for all trees of all sizes

Actually it does. If the tree is just 3 inches thick, you could still take a stance behind the tree with the remaining part of the 30 cm, so you wouldn't get relief.

Dixon Joyers explains this lie from 10:30 on in video https://youtu.be/3LNVPWS60Nc

Up against a tree starts at 12:23.

I wonder where he got the notion that "I can back up far enough that it's not in my throwing motion"?

Or, maybe he was just pointing out that placing the marker up against the tree happens to give him that much room in this particular situation, and it is not provided by rule.

Also, he correctly says, but does not demonstrate, that he needs to place his mini down behind the tree to take relief.

 

[araytx]

Actually it does. If the tree is just 3 inches thick, you could still take a stance behind the tree with the remaining part of the 30 cm, so you wouldn't get relief.



Up against a tree starts at 12:23.

I wonder where he got the notion that "I can back up far enough that it's not in my throwing motion"?

Or, maybe he was just pointing out that placing the marker up against the tree happens to give him that much room in this particular situation, and it is not provided by rule.

Also, he correctly says, but does not demonstrate, that he needs to place his mini down behind the tree to take relief.

I am thinking he meant you still get a 30cm lie -- if that 30 cm starts behind the large solid object, so be it.