how would you rule on this very strange scenario?

[ludds]

Playing at a course that had some rain water and my friends disc went in the water. It was maybe 3-5 inches where his lie was. He then attempted to throw with one foot on land and one foot "touching the surface" of the water which was the spot of the lie. I am wondering if you have to put your fully touching land behind the lie for it to count as supporting. Also if his foot lifted from the surface of the water, would that also be against the rules? so two parter:

1. does your foot by the lie have to fully be on the ground rather than on top of the water?

2. if the foot lifted up before the throw would that be illegal as well?

thanks!

 

[F. Howl]

Playing at a course that had some rain water and my friends disc went in the water. It was maybe 3-5 inches where his lie was. He then attempted to throw with one foot on land and one foot "touching the surface" of the water which was the spot of the lie. I am wondering if you have to put your fully touching land behind the lie for it to count as supporting. Also if his foot lifted from the surface of the water, would that also be against the rules? so two parter:

1. does your foot by the lie have to fully be on the ground rather than on top of the water?

2. if the foot lifted up before the throw would that be illegal as well?

thanks!

If you decide to play in the puddle as the disc lies, I think your foot should be touching bottom. If that foot lifted and his back foot is not in the 20cm x 30 cm rectangle directly behind the disc, stance violation.

I think this is the applicable rule:

806.03 Casual Area

A) A casual area is casual water, or any area specifically designated as a casual area by the Director before the round. Casual water is any body of water that is in-bounds, and has not been explicitly declared by the Director to be in play.
B) To obtain relief from a casual area, the player's lie may be relocated to the nearest lie which is farther from the target and is on the line of play, at the nearest point that provides relief (unless greater casual relief is announced by the Director).

 

[txmxer]

how did the throw turnout?

 

[ludds]

They missed their putt.

 

[coupe]

A few things:

A) not "by" the lie, "on" the lie;

B) for the purposes of rule enforcement, water is not a playing surface (see 028.05 Lie and QA-CAS-2: Does the term "body of water" in the casual relief rule include bodies of ice and snow?), so you can't take a legal stance on it;

C) there is no requirement that the foot be fully on the ground when the disc is released to be a legal throw, only that a supporting point, which could be a hand, a knee, an elbow, your head, or even just a finger or a toe, be on the lie; and

D) depending on where the supporting point on land was relative to the marker disc, the throw may or may not have been legal, even if the foot touching the surface of the water was raised before the disc was released: if part of it was within the 20x30 cm rectangle that defines the lie, the throw was legal; if it was entirely outside the lie, it wasn't.

 

[ludds]

So if his other foot was well outside the space behind the lie, not putting his foot fully in the water to touch the ground behind the disc would be an illegal stance.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

As long as the player has:

1) a supporting point in the 8x11 (or there abouts) area that defines a legal lie (based on where there shot came to rest and...
2) no supporting point closer to the basket...

...they're good.

Whether or not their lifted foot (whether it's on the surface of the water or above) is closer doesn't matter, as long as it's not a supporting point.

 

[ru4por]

In casual play?? Tell "johnny cotton socks" to get his foot into the water behind his lie and play the disc. SMH.

 

[ToddL]

The surface of the water does not count as a playing surface. Get your foot in there or take casual relief backwards. But like some others have said, you could just dip your toe in, as long as it touches the ground under the water. Or stretch your left hand in there. But however you do it, the playing surface is the ground, so you have to touch the ground.

 

[cheesethin]

802.05 Lie ...The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken.*

This is why water itself can't be deemed a playing surface, but ice and snow can potentially be a playing surface.

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[biscoe]

The fact that something is not a playing surface at 33 degrees F and is at 15 degrees F is flat out silly.

 

[cheesethin]

The fact that something is not a playing surface at 33 degrees F and is at 15 degrees F is flat out silly.

Ah c'mon. Physics is far more interesting. Check out the phase diagram of water on wiki.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram

A*phase diagram*in*physical chemistry,*engineering,*mineralogy, and*materials science*is a type of*chart*used to show conditions (pressure, temperature, volume, etc.) at which thermodynamically distinct*phases*(such as solid, liquid or gaseous states) occur and coexist at*equilibrium.

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[biscoe]

Ah c'mon. Physics is far more interesting. Check out the phase diagram of water on wiki.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_diagram

The lead card debates over solid or slurry will be fascinating on video.

 

[Answers to Lucky]

802.05 Lie ...The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken.*

This is why water itself can't be deemed a playing surface, but ice and snow can potentially be a playing surface.

It's a little harder to mark the lie, but it can be done.

 

[Steve West]

The fact that something is not a playing surface at 33 degrees F and is at 15 degrees F is flat out silly.

What about when the ground ceases to become a playing surface at 1500 degrees? Or whatever temperature shoes melt. There could be courses in Yellowstone or Hawaii where some areas of the ground is so hot it is not a playing surface.

The point is, there would be no way to list all the things that go into determining whether something can support the player.

The thrower and the group just have to figure it out whether or not something is "a surface [...] which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken, or is "any other object that provides support", or not.

 

[biscoe]

What about when the ground ceases to become a playing surface at 1500 degrees? Or whatever temperature shoes melt. There could be courses in Yellowstone or Hawaii where some areas of the ground is so hot it is not a playing surface.

tu quoque

The point is, there would be no way to list all the things that go into determining whether something can support the player.

The thrower and the group just have to figure it out whether or not something is "a surface [...] which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance can reasonably be taken, or is "any other object that provides support", or not.

So you have no problem with the "playing surface" changing over the course of a day as something freezes/melts/is engulfed in lava?

IMO the default defining line on a body of water which is characterized as OB should remain the same when that body of water freezes- the TD can always designate it differently. This is much more a player safety issue than it is a competitive balance issue.

When a player looks at a tee sign and sees a blue area representing a pond designated OB the boundaries of that OB should not be different if the pond happens to be frozen.

 

[Steve West]

tu quoque



So you have no problem with the "playing surface" changing over the course of a day as something freezes/melts/is engulfed in lava?

IMO the default defining line on a body of water which is characterized as OB should remain the same when that body of water freezes- the TD can always designate it differently. This is much more a player safety issue than it is a competitive balance issue.

When a player looks at a tee sign and sees a blue area representing a pond designated OB the boundaries of that OB should not be different if the pond happens to be frozen.

I wasn't talking about whether something is Out of Bounds. That's a different rule than whether something is a Playing Surface. Yes, whether an area is a playing surface or not can depend on the temperature. If it goes from a place where a stance can reasonably be taken to a place where a stance cannot reasonably be taken, or vice versa.

 

[Meillo]

I cannot put a stone into the shallow water and step on that to keep my feet dry, but I could place a disc upside down there and step onto that (the thinkness must be small enough). Could I put a salad bowl onto the lie and step with my foot into that? It would be of little thickness under the foot and it can keep my feet dry, even with several inches of water. (You know, a salad bowl is always in my bag, for a delicious wild herb salad, when I get hungy mid-round. ;-) )

Would that be legal?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I cannot put a stone into the shallow water and step on that to keep my feet dry, but I could place a disc upside down there and step onto that (the thickness must be small enough). Could I put a salad bowl onto the lie and step with my foot into that? It would be of little thickness under the foot and it can keep my feet dry, even with several inches of water. (You know, a salad bowl is always in my bag, for a delicious wild herb salad, when I get hungry mid-round. ;-) )

Would that be legal?

An upside-down catch disc is just a wider salad bowl.

 

[krupicka]

Simpler would be to just put a trash bag around your foot...