I am going off on my own, a totally new approach

[Bradley Walker]

Mike Austin changed my way of thinking about the golf swing. One of the main aspects of his approach is that the lead arm (the one that holds the club) is basically very passive, and is simply an extension of the arc that is constant around the neck.

The engine of the golf swing is the trailing side, that essentially walks past the lead side. He demonstrated this by using a rope as his lead arm.

The more I watch videos of the very best throwers, we are trying to achieve positions with the lead side that are simply REACTIONS to the TRAILING SIDE. The trailing side is out of position in bad form and no matter how badly you would like to achieve those positions you can't, because the trailing side "walking past" the lead side is not happening.

I have been practicing simply holding my throwing arm out on an arc and moving the entire throw from beginning to end simply positioning my trailing shoulder and throwing the entire throw with my trailing shoulder position. The throwing arm is simply a soft arc.

I take my left arm and put my left hand on my right biceps, as the same way here in the Austin rope demonstration.

Kevin Jones in particular appears to simply throw the disc with his left shoulder position, his right arm is doing almost nothing. Observe.

He is rotating his trailing side around the lead side and his throwing arm is simply passive extension of his core.

Try it. You can swing your left side around your fixed right side faster than you can get your right side out of the way. And with a great deal more power and ease. Try it!!!

 

[slowplastic]

Do you feel a momentary recoil/pushback of the left shoulder or arm?

 

[Bradley Walker]

Do you feel a momentary recoil/pushback of the left shoulder or arm?

Not really. Do you?

Just try it without a disc. Put your throwing arm out kind of straight and place your left hand on your right biceps/shoulder. Then forget about it. Then do your walk up up simply moving your left shoulder back behind you then walk it though.

Ignore your throwing arm. Do not move it.

Your elbow will bend from momentum and lag if you keep it somewhat soft.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Look at the Kevin Jones gif... Is he doing anything with his throwing arm different than what I am saying? Really look at it.

 

[slowplastic]

I think I can go through that motion both with and without feeling the rear arm/shoulder pause or recoil, so that's why I'm asking what you're feeling.

Lately I have definitely been feeling how to set up the swing with my rear shoulder, so this is pretty timely.

I would say Drew Gibson has a pretty typical rear arm motion where he brings it in/forward with the rear shoulder to set up, then you can clearly see the rear arm/shoulder counter/impact back during the swing, which is the feel I'm asking about.



Whereas Ken Jarvis has a momentary pause I would say of the left shoulder during the swing/hit but it doesn't seem to recoil back as aggressively as Gibson. So I guess his shoulder pauses in space but moves back relative to his body slightly.

https://youtu.be/ncFsq7vqE3w?t=83 go to 1:23 for the shot.

Then Gurthie is on the other extreme end but that's really going a different direction in feel from what you're talking about, I think.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I am saying maybe let's just clear the deck... Start from scratch. Clear the mind and look at it from a very simple perspective.

The throwing arm is the extension from the neck (it bends and extends and that is all), and the trailing side is the engine.

The throwing arm side is passive.

Stop moving the trailing arm and plant it, at least for the drill.

I don't see Kevin Jones recoiling at all.

 

[Bradley Walker]

https://youtu.be/ncFsq7vqE3w?t=83 go to 1:23 for the shot.

Then Gurthie is on the other extreme end but that's really going a different direction in feel from what you're talking about, I think.

They kind of shoot down that whole "plant your lead foot closed" thing. I always knew that was BS...

 

[slowplastic]

They kind of shoot down that whole "plant your lead foot closed" thing. I always knew that was BS...

Yeah it's interesting. More and more to me it seems that it can be neutral/natural/slightly open relative to your own body/throw, but if you have a nice rectangular teepad drawn out and take a still frame of the plant then yes it will look 90 or even closed relative to that front edge.

 

[RFrance]

I had posted this last night on the Latissimus thread in response to a video. Maybe it is more appropriate on this thread.

What's really interesting to me is that at the 15-16 second mark it sure looks like McBeth is using his left shoulder (and fist) to drive the swing. You can see it again at 50 seconds.

https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=14

 

[RFrance]

I was playing a fairly wooded course this morning and while learning and trying to use the left shoulder for power I was having better accuracy. I just got back from the field and the accuracy for me is real. It also feels effortless and I haven't lost any distance. I was getting slip outs so there is still room for more distance when I learn to control the power.

 

[keltik]

I tend to think about power throwing starting from the feet and hips. Looking at your Kevin Jones gif it looks like his core is locking his left hip and left shoulder together as he is driving with the back foot and hip. His right arm has only to throw from the right pec area. I like where you're going with this. I used to be really bad about strong arming or over twisting. I think this gives a better focal point to developing the initial driving rotation. Jones footwork and lower body movements are on point. thanks for this!

 

[Grippenripp]

Mike Austin changed my way of thinking about the golf swing. One of the main aspects of his approach is that the lead arm (the one that holds the club) is basically very passive, and is simply an extension of the arc that is constant around the neck.

The engine of the golf swing is the trailing side, that essentially walks past the lead side. He demonstrated this by using a rope as his lead arm.

The more I watch videos of the very best throwers, we are trying to achieve positions with the lead side that are simply REACTIONS to the TRAILING SIDE. The trailing side is out of position in bad form and no matter how badly you would like to achieve those positions you can't, because the trailing side "walking past" the lead side is not happening.

I have been practicing simply holding my throwing arm out on an arc and moving the entire throw from beginning to end simply positioning my trailing shoulder and throwing the entire throw with my trailing shoulder position. The throwing arm is simply a soft arc.

I take my left arm and put my left hand on my right biceps, as the same way here in the Austin rope demonstration.

Kevin Jones in particular appears to simply throw the disc with his left shoulder position, his right arm is doing almost nothing. Observe.

He is rotating his trailing side around the lead side and his throwing arm is simply passive extension of his core.

Try it. You can swing your left side around your fixed right side faster than you can get your right side out of the way. And with a great deal more power and ease. Try it!!!

Any way we can see you do this little drill. I feel like I am on the same page and if I am understanding this correctly then I feel like a breakthrough just happened. If I am doing the drill that you suggest correctly them it makes much more sense on getting the drive for your drive and everything upper body may have just "clicked" for me.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah it's interesting. More and more to me it seems that it can be neutral/natural/slightly open relative to your own body/throw, but if you have a nice rectangular teepad drawn out and take a still frame of the plant then yes it will look 90 or even closed relative to that front edge.

For most people the front foot should plant about 90 degrees to the apex/trajectory (unless you are throwing less than full swing), the rear foot should be slightly open relative the front foot. The other factor is your natural hip flexibility, some people are naturally pigeon toed, or duck toed, so you will have to account for that to release the swing to your apex. The lead leg should land in dynamic neutral joint alignment to allow for maximum mobility and stability in the hip, like I explain setting up in Power of Posture and Crush the Can.

If you aim a distance shot anhyzer or hyzer-flip - leftward trajectory to apex, then the front foot will appear more closed to the landing target finishing to the right/center. Your rear foot will also appear more closed to target, but neutral stance as everything aligns to the trajectory. This is the equivalent of a draw stance in ball golf.

If you aim a hyzer shot - rightward trajectory to apex, then the front foot will appear more open to landing target finishing to the left/center. Your rear foot will also appear more open to target but neutral stance as everything aligns to the trajectory. This is the equivalent of a fade stance in ball golf.

There is no such thing as a straight shot, everything is either drawed/anhyzered straight or faded/hyzered straight. Crush the Can is for a left to right distance line. It will feel the same for a hyzer, but aiming to the right.

 

[Discusted]

If the front side and arm is so passive... what happened to the reverse K or wide rail direction of the reachback and the pointing the elbow to 10:30?

 

[Hoeschel]

If the front side and arm is so passive... what happened to the reverse K or wide rail direction of the reachback and the pointing the elbow to 10:30?

Other people know more about this than me, but here is how i see it.

How exactly you "reach back" does not matter. For the actual throwing motion, you want to do that without actively moving you arm anyways. Use your body in a way that moves the arm through the correct positions. Just make sure your upper arm doesn't collapse against the chest. If you think about using the body as a power generator levering the arm, then it makes no sense to actively move the arm forward. You will lose the connection to your body and there is no way your muscles can make up for that.

edit: see how fast the lower arm is moving here in relation to the upper arm: https://youtu.be/U39RMUzCjiU?t=113 That is the power of levers

 

[Hoeschel]

I just had a few minutes to try "working the left side". I already very consciously used to do this on low power shots, but never really when going full. So far, i don't see a big difference in distance. However, i think this could be a great fix if you have trouble with "pulling" early. As long as you are moving back into the plant (instead of pushing open with the back foot), i don't see how you possibly could start bringing your left side forward before you are fully settled on the plant foot.

 

[Bradley Walker]

The idea, is to throw everything out.

Start over. Clear the decls.

That is what I did in my golf swing. And it worked. I am showing yoh what I did.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Let's turn our attention to the rear foot. watch closely.

A big part of keeping the trailing side "all working together" is the KICK. It is true in the golf swing, it is true here. Watch his back foot. It goes from about 45 degrees facing back away from the target to his toes pointing at the target in a very fast spin. The foot directs the knee, the knee swings around with the foot, the knee swinging makes the hip swing around, the hip is tied to his rear shoulder via his trunk. One big piece launched around via the KICK.

All of this occurs as the lead side side (the throwing side) remains very passive and just kind of sits there.

I think this "spin the rear foot" is critical. I never did that right... I always pushed vertically. It is really more of knee swing.

I would submit that this is exactly the same as the Mike Austin rear leg kick except in disc golf we do it twice as much. Or nearly twice as much rotation since the rear foot goes from nearly pointing away from the target to pointing to the target.

 

[Bradley Walker]

If the front side and arm is so passive... what happened to the reverse K or wide rail direction of the reachback and the pointing the elbow to 10:30?

I never advocated any "wide rail".

For the record I think all these approaches to describing a pull line are BS. These all try to describe an arc in linear terms. It is an arc, with two other arcs attached to it... It appears linear simply due to momentum. When you pull on something it snaps straight. The linear appearance is simply an EFFECT, not a cause.

You can still work on the elbow, but if you are not achieving the same trailing side to front side relationship as Kevin Jones shown here, it really does very little as a form improver.

For the purpose of this completely new approach, if you keep your elbow joint soft, it will find the angles.

 

[axion]

Can we get a video of someone showing this? Im a bit confused. Im understanding this as not moving my right shoulder, but bring my left shoulder around it? Im probably just confused.