Intentional over-rotation 12 o'clock eject to throw wide vs runup angle?

[disc-golf-neil]

At 34:23

Gannon talks about planning to throw wide, but it looks like his run up is towards the top right corner of the tee and his plant is also in that direction which appears to be more lined up to the big tree, but he throws way right of the big tree.

Is this a case of intentionally trying to over-rotate to release closer to 12 o'clock to throw wide vs changing the runup angle to be more to the right?
Why not run up more to the right to have a standard 10 o'clock release that goes in the same direction?

 

[sidewinder22]

I think it has more to due with creating a bigger backswing, than changing the release.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think it has more to due with creating a bigger backswing, than changing the release.

You're using backswing in place of reachback, right? I like the term but just wanted to make sure.

Are you saying he is releasing at his normal spot? Maybe it's just camera angle but I thought it looked like a later release than normal.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

It looks like a regular old hyzer. He just created a better opportunity using the angle and how much open space it had.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It looks like a regular old hyzer. He just created a better opportunity using the angle and how much open space it had.

I'm talking about the aiming aspect though. His plant foot is angled in a way that doesn't look like he's going to be throwing that far to the right.

 

[sidewinder22]

You're using backswing in place of reachback, right? I like the term but just wanted to make sure.

Are you saying he is releasing at his normal spot? Maybe it's just camera angle but I thought it looked like a later release than normal.

Yes and yes. Hard to see his foot.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

I'm talking about the aiming aspect though. His plant foot is angled in a way that doesn't look like he's going to be throwing that far to the right.

His body is facing a normal direction for hyzer release. He's just addressing the tee box at that angle to access it with a better chance for his kind of putt. I.e. if he did it normal. He would be 20ft in the water if it were to miss.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Yes and yes. Hard to see his foot.

View attachment 334948

Maybe it's camera angle but this is what I'm seeing with my noob paint skills (prob wrong) trying to draw a 90 degree angle on the brace to see where 9 and 12 is related to the brace.



However, in the slow motion vid you linked, it looks similar, except the less powerful throw (350 hyzer) you can clearly see the disc being ejected instead of the eject being behind the body on the more powerful one.

I always thought more powerful throws tended to be released further right, hence why some people close the brace passed 90 on harder throws, but in my form review when my max power was released further right of where my brace was angled, I was told I was throwing too far to the right in relation to my how my plant was angled.

So now it seems to me that in the tournament, Gannon is choosing to, instead of closing the brace angle more, to run up angled to the left more to counteract some of the extra wideness that comes from a higher powered hyzer.

 

[sidewinder22]

IMO it can get weird using the clock as a frame of reference. 12 o'clock is the trajectory.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

IMO it can get weird using the clock as a frame of reference. 12 o'clock is the trajectory.
View attachment 334954

Hm, yeah that's kind of weird. So what is a shank then if a shank is still going to 12 o'clock? Is the clock not useful for comparing shanks to non shanks?

I've always thought about shanks and sawed off as: I'm closing my brace 90 degrees away from where I am aiming, so a shank is when the disc goes to the right of that aim point that is tied to my brace and sawed off is to the left. But there's some wiggle room for higher / lower power and the degrees the brace is in relation to aim point.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hm, yeah that's kind of weird. So what is a shank then if a shank is still going to 12 o'clock? Is the clock not useful for comparing shanks to non shanks?

I've always thought about shanks and sawed off as: I'm closing my brace 90 degrees away from where I am aiming, so a shank is when the disc goes to the right of that aim point that is tied to my brace and sawed off is to the left. But there's some wiggle room for higher / lower power and the degrees the brace is in relation to aim point.

What was the intended trajectory or clock reference? Generally it's perpendicular to the front foot angle.

Low power shots are different.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Why aren't you pointing at the Ulibarri broke the hole down in the same way, and PARKED it. Gannon just followed those vapor trails but threw it much higher. How his shoulders approach the tee make sense in how it comes together. Compared to Uli, he yanked it.

 

[Brychanus]

Hm, yeah that's kind of weird. So what is a shank then if a shank is still going to 12 o'clock? Is the clock not useful for comparing shanks to non shanks?

I've always thought about shanks and sawed off as: I'm closing my brace 90 degrees away from where I am aiming, so a shank is when the disc goes to the right of that aim point that is tied to my brace and sawed off is to the left. But there's some wiggle room for higher / lower power and the degrees the brace is in relation to aim point.

You will often see the release point between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock if you are fixing 12 o'clock to the release trajectory like in SW's image, in which case the release trajectory is usually perpendicular to the plant foot angle.

Sentences like that are part of why I try to avoid clock-speak since you have to choose the frame of reference for it to make sense lol

Sometimes players don't make the overall lateral force of their move sideways to the target/intended trajectory. This is not 100% of cases, but what you are calling a shank to the right (i.e., actually spoiling it way offline in the way you imagine) is often caused by a player swinging "over the top" of their brace. In general, you will see top throwers much closer to the "trajectory at ~90 degrees to plant foot angle/where overall force is 'sideways.'" There's also a little wiggle room in there.

Some related top-down images:





I think it's fair to note that you do see some exceptions. E.g. Gibson vs. Nybo:
"Drew is considerably more staggered closed and turned back than KJ Nybo."-SW22



Healthy to keep in mind that no 2 shots are exactly the same, bodies vary, etc. It'd be nice to have a series of vids of top throwers asked to throw the exact "same" shot 10-20 times to see and measure within and between player variability.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

You will often see the release point between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock if you are fixing 12 o'clock to the release trajectory like in SW's image, in which case the release trajectory is usually perpendicular to the plant foot angle.

Sentences like that are part of why I try to avoid clock-speak since you have to choose the frame of reference for it to make sense lol

Sometimes players don't make the overall lateral force of their move sideways to the target/intended trajectory. This is not 100% of cases, but what you are calling a shank to the right (i.e., actually spoiling it way offline in the way you imagine) is often caused by a player swinging "over the top" of their brace. In general, you will see top throwers much closer to the "trajectory at ~90 degrees to plant foot angle/where overall force is 'sideways.'" There's also a little wiggle room in there.

Some related top-down images:

View attachment 334957
View attachment 334956
View attachment 334958

I think it's fair to note that you do see some exceptions. E.g. Gibson vs. Nybo:
"Drew is considerably more staggered closed and turned back than KJ Nybo."-SW22
View attachment 334959
View attachment 334960

Healthy to keep in mind that no 2 shots are exactly the same, bodies vary, etc. It'd be nice to have a series of vids of top throwers asked to throw the exact "same" shot 10-20 times to see and measure within and between player variability.

I'm tracking what you're saying but not completely probably so I want to see if it matches these general / on average rules of thumb for throws with small hyzer release angle and normal golf line launch angle (with no 2 throws no 2 bodies equal caveat).

1. Plant with foot ~90 degrees closed in relation to your immediate aim point (e.g., if there was a close gap to make). <90 for softer approach shots, ~90 for comfortable power, >90 for closer to max power (changing runup angle or I guess amount of internal brace foot rotation?)
2. Release should generally happen 30-60 degrees before the immediate aim point (each hour on a clock is separated by 30 degrees)

 

[Nick Carroll]

Just throwing this out there: A lot of players deliberately late release with extra hyzer on some throws, or with a more flat angle and overstable discs, and it's hard to tell in every image what the intent is in some shots. Also form tends to break down more at the highest power levels, so it can be tricky to see if something in a still image is deliberate, or a result of form breakdown.