Interference or not?

[JC17393]

What remedy does the thrower have if another perhaps belligerent player in the group says he is not going to move his cart (let's say bad blood brewing during round)? This extends to the Catrina incident at TX States where the player who owned the car blocking her stance was not able to move his car? The penalty to the player with the equipment is simply a courtesy warning. But Catrina could not take relief moving backwards per the casual relief rule. Is the thrower just screwed being forced to take an Optional Rethrow penalty and moving back to their previous lie if they can't get the object moved or the player to move it (short of a fight)?

The truck in Catrina's incident is a lot different than a bag or cart belonging to a player in the same playing group as the affected player. No one knew who the truck belonged to, so moving it was impractical. And because of its unfortunate position, casual relief on the line of play didn't give her any better of a stance/lie since there was just as much in-bounds space on the other side of the truck as there was on the side where her disc was at rest.

For a player in the same group, if he refused to move his bag/cart due to some bad blood or whatever, I'd start with giving him a courtesy warning officially for refusing to act in accordance with a rule. If it is a matter of his bag/cart blocking my ability to take a stance, I'd then go ahead and move it out of my way whether he liked it or not. My right to move it is covered by the casual relief rule...there's no specificity on who can move a casual obstacle if it can be moved. If it's a matter of potentially interfering with my shot, I'd go ahead and throw and if his bag/cart in any way interferes with the shot, I'd penalize him the two throws proscribed by the rule.

Not sure why I'd need any more recourse than that provided to me by the rules. If things escalate beyond the courtesy warning, he's likely going to put himself in danger of disqualification because there's no way this incident doesn't get reported to the TD.

 

[Cgkdisc]

So in your opinion, physical force is acceptable resolution? Catrina could have called a tow truck and physically moved the car out of her way and charged the towing cost to the owner?

 

[Pwingles]

So in your opinion, physical force is acceptable resolution? Catrina could have called a tow truck and physically moved the car out of her way and charged the towing cost to the owner?

Assuming it escalated to this, at which point is it 'her turn to throw' or would it just be a time out so to speak

 

[JC17393]

So in your opinion, physical force is acceptable resolution? Catrina could have called a tow truck and physically moved the car out of her way and charged the towing cost to the owner?

Where did I advocate physical force? All I mentioned was warning the player and moving his equipment myself if it was in a position to qualify as a casual obstacle.

I already stated that Catrina's situation and your hypothetical involving a player's cart/bag are two different situations. So the solution for one isn't necessarily applicable to the other.

However, yes, if could be done in a timely manner, I think Catrina would have been within her rights to try to move the car herself whether that's calling a tow truck or getting a bunch of strong burly men to push it by hand. The key is time. If she can't move it without undue delay, it falls into the category of a casual obstacle that is impractical to move...no different, really, than a puddle of water. With such an obstacle, her options are the 5 meters of free relief on the line of play or optional relief beyond that.

I will say that were I the TD in that situation, I'd have had no problem declaring the hood of the car a playing surface and allowing her to stand on it and make her throw (to continue the puddle of water analogy, it'd be like standing in the puddle). It's debatable whether that would have made much of a difference in her score, but at least she'd have had an opportunity for a more comfortable throwing stance.

 

[joecoin]

... If it's a matter of potentially interfering with my shot, I'd go ahead and throw and if his bag/cart in any way interferes with the shot, I'd penalize him the two throws proscribed by the rule...

So he gets two throws added to his score, but his bag interfering with your throw costs you first place.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Catrina had a one throw lead on the last hole and wasn't much farther out than Paige on a relatively short but windy upshot. Go to 9:20 in this video to see what happened on this last hole likely because Catrina couldn't get a decent stance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zoF2VlgZeAU

 

[JoakimBL]

I acknowledge that the problem could exist still, but the problem here is not the car but the course "design", or at least the OB marking. And Catrina is not unlucky here. She is lucky that she wasn't OB.
Leaving small areas of fairway in the middle of a parking lot surrounded by OB seems ridiculous to me.

 

[Cgkdisc]

And here's why we (officials) have to make judgment calls that can't always be directly addressed in the rules. TD mistakes in special course layouts, marking or written player guides not matching marking on the course produce many of those issues. For example, what if the TD had intended to mark grass patches like Catrina landed on as OB for the event but either forgot or one of his assistants didn't get it done? Would it be okay if the official comes over after contacting the TD by phone and tells Catrina her shot is actually OB but they forgot to mark it (and it's not identified as OB in the player guide)?

 

[Discette]

And here's why we (officials) have to make judgment calls that can't always be directly addressed in the rules. TD mistakes in special course layouts, marking or written player guides not matching marking on the course produce many of those issues. For example, what if the TD had intended to mark grass patches like Catrina landed on as OB for the event but either forgot or one of his assistants didn't get it done? Would it be okay if the official comes over after contacting the TD by phone and tells Catrina her shot is actually OB but they forgot to mark it (and it's not identified as OB in the player guide)?

Your joking, right?

This happened during round three! If this happened during Round 1, they could mark it before the start of Round 2.

I think most of us have been to an event where during the round it is discovered that there is some problem with the rules on a certain hole. Somehow, something is in conflict with written or oral directions or a car ends up on the fairway. If groups have already played the hole, you can't change anything....unless by chance, they were all in the same division.

Since this was a tee time event, and this was final group of women, they could have marked it OB after the ladies played the hole to prevent problems for next divisions yet to play the hole. If divisions are on shot gun start, you could put a volunteer there to better explain something, but you can't change rules or the course after the start of the round. Even if you meant to do it earlier.

It is not fair for some groups in a division to play a hole differently than others in the division. So any decisions made during the round/event must take this into account.