Knowledge bomb from the 970 rated advice thread

[azplaya25]

The sticky here titled Craig's corner is a summary of great advice from an old 970 rated advice thread. I found that thread and was digging through it, and found this gem from t i m:

Try this -- any of you. Take your local course scorecard and look at the distances. Work through the card with an imaginary player who has 100% accuracy up to 300 feet and 100% accuracy at 30' putts. Therefore, any hole up to 330' is a deuce, any hole up to 630 is a 3, any hole up to 930 is a 4...

You can also try this with a theoretical player who can only drive 250' and only makes putts 20' and in, but can do both 100% of the time.

Yes, this is a theoretical player, and we're not taking into effect uphill and downhill, trees, etc... but since any pro we're talking about can throw more than 300', I think this is a pretty good number. They will also make a lot of putts outside of 30', but for this exercise, we're using 300/30 at 100% as hard numbers. See what those players shoot and see how that compares to the SSA for whatever course you're looking at.

I looked quickly at three courses people would be familiar with -- Renny Gold, Delaveaga and Maple Hill -- and ran the numbers and compared them to tourney SSAs from big events in 2008.

* Renny Gold has an SSA of ~70, and playing 300/30, someone would shoot a 55 in that layout, about a 1085-rated round; playing 250/20, someone would shoot a 65 for a 1028-rated round.
* Delaveaga has an SSA of ~81 for 27 holes, and playing 300/30, someone would shoot a 66, about a 1091-rated round; playing 250/20, someone would shoot a 76 for a 1030-rated round.
* Maple Hill longs has an SSA of ~62.5, and playing 300/30, someone would shoot a 48, about a 1107-rated round; playing 250/20, someone would shoot a 54 for a 1062-rated round.

The theoretical, 300/30, mistake-free player above is averaging more than 50-rating-points higher than any golfer in the PDGA, and that's without landing any drive over 300-feet. The theoretical 250/20, mistake-free player is averaging ~a 1040 on those courses, which would be the 2nd-highest rating in the world right now. Definitely in the top 10 no matter how you slice it. So in theory, 250/20 could put you in the top 10 players in the world, as long as you can do everything right, every time, on pro-level courses.

Sure, driving farther helps, but accuracy and consistency are far more important to scoring well. I don't think not being able to reach 400' holes matters as long as you make sure you take ALL of the short birdies.

Test 300/30 or 250/20 with your local course scorecard, and see how that theoretical pro does against your best scores. And we know that ANY of us are capable of throwing 250/20... it's just a matter of doing it accurately, over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

I'm not posting this because I think accuracy is more important than power. I'm of the opinion that power leads to accuracy because it allows you to throw slower, more accurate disc. It's pretty wild to see just how good you can score with accurate 300 foot drives and excellent putting

 

[Dingus]

The sticky here titled Craig's corner is a summary of great advice from an old 970 rated advice thread. I found that thread and was digging through it, and found this gem from t i m:

I'm not posting this because I think accuracy is more important than power. I'm of the opinion that power leads to accuracy because it allows you to throw slower, more accurate disc. It's pretty wild to see just how good you can score with accurate 300 foot drives and excellent putting

This is great, makes me even more solid in my opinion that anyone saying their "automatic" up and down distance is 300' is full of crap.

 

[azplaya25]

This is great, makes me even more solid in my opinion that anyone saying their "automatic" up and down distance is 300' is full of crap.

Agreed. Throwing within 20 feet of a wide open soccer net on your lunch break is way different than executing on the course with trees and ob and people watching.

One thing I took away from this is that I need to be better with disc selection, and throw my mids more. So many times I step up to a 380 foot hole and just mash on a driver, trying to get as close as I can. I either have perfect shot and I'm 50 feet away, or I shank and I'm scrambling to save bogey. If I just focus on a nice, smooth swing with a roc, I'm around 100 feet out pretty much every time. I'm not making many 50 foot putts, and I can get up and down just as well from 100 as I can from 50, so why am I reaching for the driver there? I think the answer is that it's more fun. Trying to throw far is more fun than just throwing a roc down the middle of the fairway lol.

 

[JKieb704]

I love this theory! In fact, I've found lots of success during tournaments by just discing-down to a Roc or a putter and throwing the straight-forward, short shot. Sometimes you just got to divide the hole in smaller bit-size pieces and pick it apart slowly.

Although, I have the privilege of throwing Renny Gold from time-to-time. There are some holes out there, where throwing 250' shots down the fairway is much easier said then done.

 

[DiscFifty]

yep... reminds of this thread, with some interesting thoughts...

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106654

 

[azplaya25]

Yeah some interesting discussion in there. I think the best post was this one:

What I think is always hilarious about these discussions is that, in general, you're most accurate at <80% of your max distance. So being accurate at 300' means you can throw ~360'. That's right around the plateau you hit without "half hitting" or "full hitting" (i.e. the plateau almost all players hit). If you hit that plateau with fairway drivers (which most can do if they aren't OAT monkeys), that means you can probably hit 400' on a distance line with a faster disc.

So if "all" you need is really good accuracy at 300', then you probably have the capability to throw 400'. Yet people will argue back and forth about how far you "need" to throw without realizing they're both arguing for the same thing.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I came here to post that accurate at 300' is probably 400+ power.

I'm not super long or accurate. Give me a couple of my 9 and 10 speed discs and in 5 throws, I'll probably hit 300'+ a time or two, maybe more. If I get one good, I might hit about 320 or 330'. I play a pair of back to back 230' holes, one up a massive hill, one with a super low ceiling, probably like 6 feet in places. I've thrown both hundreds of times. The best I've ever thrown the uphill hole is 25 feet short. And I've thrown past the basket on the low ceiling hole exactly once.

 

[Dingus]

Yeah some interesting discussion in there. I think the best post was this one:

That is interesting and it was mirrored in a recent thread. I wonder how many people this holds for because it is completely the opposite for me. I throw my most accurate at 95% power, and I get less accurate as I try to range the throw down from there.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

That is interesting and it was mirrored in a recent thread. I wonder how many people this holds for because it is completely the opposite for me. I throw my most accurate at 95% power, and I get less accurate as I try to range the throw down from there.

Overall, a solid thread.

When I used to review courses, I focused heavily on a similar metric for the review; the objective being to reduce the 'intimidation' factor. Scoring well, for the average guy, is often throwing the appropriate shot and reducing big errors via discipline.

I believe it's almost always better to throw a 'full' shot, which implies total commitment to your chosen play - another argument for 'discing down'...

 

[azplaya25]

That is interesting and it was mirrored in a recent thread. I wonder how many people this holds for because it is completely the opposite for me. I throw my most accurate at 95% power, and I get less accurate as I try to range the throw down from there.

Similar to Calvin Heinburg, his accuracy seems to increase the harder he throws. My problem is more power = less smooth, so I have to really focus on not trying to throw as far as possible because it makes me less consistent. Sounds like you are the opposite.

 

[elmexdela]

reminds me of brp hole 4

2 perfect putter shots at about 225 each and then an easy putt for the 3

however most people are throwing drivers and plinko and chipping around the trees to save a 5

or at hidden lake when they used to have fairways only big enough for an atv to ride thru most people score better if they could stay on the fairway with a rock or buzz instead of a dd

theory and practice are clearly different though

 

[Jugular]

Yeah some interesting discussion in there. I think the best post was this one:

That resonates for me in particular because whenever someone says "You can't progress to this thing, until you can throw xxx feet." I immediately wonder throwing what disc in what conditions on what line, and how consistently or accurately.

I've thrown 450' with my lightweight Star Shryke before, I couldn't tell you where it's going to land in a 150' radius nor could I replicate that distance more than once in a dozen throws. For that reason I don't really consider myself someone who throws 450'.

I played a tournament last weekend and I couldn't get up and down consistently from 60', of course I scored abysmally but I know where I need to spend my practice time.

 

[azplaya25]

I played a tournament last weekend and I couldn't get up and down consistently from 60', of course I scored abysmally but I know where I need to spend my practice time.

Yeah, a part of the equation that wasn't discussed much in that old thread was the whole 100% putting from 25-30 feet. I'm really good with my Rocs and putting them in the circle from 250ish and in. Canning every 25 foot putt I step up to? Whole different story lol


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[Jugular]

Yeah, a part of the equation that wasn't discussed much in that old thread was the whole 100% putting from 25-30 feet. I'm really good with my Rocs and putting them in the circle from 250ish and in. Canning every 25 foot putt I step up to? Whole different story lol

My putting was actually pretty solid, I meant even the trivially easy upshots for me were just terrible. My next fieldwork is going to be throwing all my putters as upshots into a softball net facing 90 degrees away from me so I have to hyzer them in. I'll be doing that from ever increasing distances as per some of the putting games.

 

[adamgservo]

Totally agree with the original data posted. If you can throw straight/accurate 250 ft and make 20 foot putts every time, you are shooting +1000.

One point regarding accuracy vs. power though:
If you can throw 400 ft distance lines, you can throw 300 ft golf lines way easier than someone that can only hit 300 ft distance lines. So in order to reach those theoretical 250 ft or 300 ft perfect lines, you will need to throw much farther in field practice shots. Plus throwing 300 ft with a putter almost always looks like a dead straight line. 300 ft dead straight with a driver usually requires a hyzer flip which is more angle sensitive. (Plus a big skip when it hits the ground)

 

[azplaya25]

Totally agree with the original data posted. If you can throw straight/accurate 250 ft and make 20 foot putts every time, you are shooting +1000.

One point regarding accuracy vs. power though:
If you can throw 400 ft distance lines, you can throw 300 ft golf lines way easier than someone that can only hit 300 ft distance lines. So in order to reach those theoretical 250 ft or 300 ft perfect lines, you will need to throw much farther in field practice shots. Plus throwing 300 ft with a putter almost always looks like a dead straight line. 300 ft dead straight with a driver usually requires a hyzer flip which is more angle sensitive. (Plus a big skip when it hits the ground)

Yeah great point. Lot of people on the forum push back on the "get your mids out to 300" advice, stating how they can easily get 300 with their mamba/wraith/tern. There is no way you can control a fast driver as well as a mid.

 

[Dingus]

Yeah great point. Lot of people on the forum push back on the "get your mids out to 300" advice, stating how they can easily get 300 with their mamba/wraith/tern. There is no way you can control a fast driver as well as a mid.

Idk, they probably can. The flight of a wraith that maxes out at 300' won't be all that much different than my Roc that goes 300'. Most of accuracy is the release point, and I don't get a better release point just because the speed is lower. And outside of release point I think it is easier to carve a fairway with a driver vs a mid. Honestly if I had to name my most "accurate" disc it would be the Teebird, just because of how trained I am to throw that grip and my release point is the most accurate.

The only reason I throw primarily mids is because I like throwing 95% power. If the hole is 300' I throw a Roc, because if I threw a Teebird it would go 360'+. I am significantly less accurate with release point throwing putters, but I still drive a putter on a 260' hole because otherwise I am going long.

This isn't to say people should be happy throwing a mamba on a 300' hole. They should absolutely clean up their OAT and be able to throw mids that far.

 

[RoDeO]

I look to throw my most stable disc for every shot I throw generally. It's way easier to control a stable or overstable disc and sacrifice some distance for control.

 

[RoDeO]

On some short holes around 200-250 feet I will pull out a distance driver in the 9-10 speed just because for me it's easy to control a high speed disc with a less effort throw and have the disc act overstable.

 

[dreadlock86]

yeah, we're well aware of your opinion. now scamper off so the adults can stay on topic.