Let's discuss the caddy/kids rule

[VictorB]

In light of the ruling made last weekend at Champions Cup (Kristin was told her 9 year old daughter could no longer follow with her and had to move to the spectator crowd) let's discuss caddy rules. The ruling was made part way through the round, and almost definitely had some impact on Kristin's mental state. Relevant section of 3.05 in the competition manual for those reading along at home, additionally 1.13 "Youth Safety" section could be applicable here.

Do caddys have to check in at the start of the round with the player? I have played 2 silver series events but never used a caddy. At a Major, wouldn't it be advisable that everyone on the card checks in - caddy included - and is aware of the rules at the start? Thus, if there's anything that is out of sorts it can be addressed at the start of the round, and so that each situation can be 'approved' by the TD prior to going on the course?

I think that this 1. could have easily been avoided and 2. should not have been addressed mid-round.

What are your thoughts?

 

[seedlings]

I wondered what happened, and would like to know who initially brought the situation up. These would be the same tournament authorities who almost assisted Sarah Hokom in making an illegal throw (crowd control fence)? Or was it a player who complained?

 

[R-Ogre]

Doesn't seem like there's much to discuss. Was the call proper by the rules? Yep. Does it make any sense to wait until the middle of the final round to call it? Nope.

 

[VictorB]

Doesn't seem like there's much to discuss.

I suppose I'm more interested in discussion about why this wasn't discovered before the round, and what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again. The ruling was 'letter of the law', but if the approved state of the group to tee off/begin the round was found to be in violation of something at a later point, why was it approved in the first place? Why can people time calling violations to points where it may benefit themselves? Why were the other players on the card not penalized for not calling the ruling earlier?

I don't want to speculate on who made the call or had to enforce it, even though I have strong feelings about it.

 

[seedlings]

Gannon Buhr is a minor. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the PDGA minimum standard for 'youth'?

 

[biscoe]

Requiring caddies to be "checked in" seems like a good idea.

 

[biscoe]

Gannon Buhr is a minor. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the PDGA minimum standard for 'youth'?

under 13

 

[VictorB]

Gannon Buhr is a minor. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the PDGA minimum standard for 'youth'?

it seems their arbitrary cutoff is 13 years old

Gannon is quite mature for 16

Nikko is quite immature for 33

Age obviously doesn't correlate to maturity levels no matter what age the PDGA calls 'youth'

 

[Streets]

I'll echo:

1. Should have checked in pre-round to avoid the whole situation
2. Complete chicken**** to enforce mid-round. Shame on the PDGA and whoever called the "violation."

 

[Dingus]

To play devil's advocate, could the allowed violation of the rule lead to liability issues for the TD and possibly void of the insurance should something happen to the kid?

 

[robdeforge]

To play devil's advocate, could the allowed violation of the rule lead to liability issues for the TD and possibly void of the insurance should something happen to the kid?

I could see that playing a role. IANAL but I believe you would be more likely to be held liable if you KNEW there was a kid and something bad happened vs. if you didn't know and the same bad thing happens, so this could just be the PDGA covering their butts

 

[Olorin]

The penalty for violating the caddie age rule

First of all, to Mike Krupicka, thank you for posting on DGCR! It's great to have the Chairman of the PDGA Rules committee weigh in. It would be wonderful if you or Steve West or anyone on the Rules committee could answer a few questions...

In the Competition Manual, an underage caddie (less than 13 years old) violates 1.13 Youth Safety. I cannot find a rule in the ORDG that applies here directly. Are there any rules in the ORDG that apply to caddies? Is 812 Courtesy the most (or only?) relevant Competition Manual section?

What are the penalty options for violating the caddy age rule (in the Competition Manual) for having an underage caddy ? Please provide the relevant reference.

I'm honestly not trying to stir up any trouble or prolong controversy. I am only seeking to understand the rules and penalties, and as I have been studying the ORDG and the Competition Manual it is not clear and self-evident to me. I think that having clear information will resolve a lot of the ambiguity and disinformation out there, and hopefully that will stop many misguided opinions that are being vociferously shared on the internet.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Note that the Rules Committee does not oversee the Competition Manual rules. I believe Jay Reading is still chair of the Competition Committee.

 

[Olorin]

Note that the Rules Committee does not oversee the Competition Manual rules. I believe Jay Reading is still chair of the Competition Committee.

Chuck, thanks for that clarification. I never knew there was a distinction. I don't play PDGA tournaments, so I will ask forgiveness in advance for my ignorance and dumb questions. It appears to me that the Competition Manual only applies to tournaments and not really to every day play. Is that accurate?

So if a "rule" in the Competition Manual is broken in a PDGA tournament how are the penalties determined? Or to keep it simple just stick to this caddy rule that was broken.

 

[Olorin]

Note that the Rules Committee does not oversee the Competition Manual rules. I believe Jay Reading is still chair of the Competition Committee.

Apparently Mike Sullivan is now the Competition Committee chairman pro tem. Maybe that is related to Des going back on tour?

 

[BillFleming]

If you haven't seen the other thread on this.(https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141220&page=12)...it was one of the live commentators (Elaine King) that saw the issue and texted Paige Pierce's caddy to let Kristen know. There has been comments that the commentator did not do it to be mean...she did it to keep Kristen from possibly being DQ'd.

I'm not part of the Rule Committee and I do make mistakes interpreting the rules, but I think this is what applies:

812.B.1. Courtesy

A player must:
Perform actions expected by the rules, including:
<left out the non-exclusive examples

So a player has to perform actions as expected by the rules and there is a non-exclusive list of some examples.

Then the penalty is:

A player receives a warning for the first violation of any courtesy rule. Each subsequent violation of any courtesy rule by that player in the same round incurs one penalty throw. A courtesy violation may be called or confirmed by any affected player, or by an Official. Repeated courtesy violations may result in disqualification by the Director.

But, you say, it was the caddy not the player....
3.05 Carts, Caddies, and Groups

C. Players choosing to use a caddie will be solely responsible for their caddie's conduct from the two-minute signal until the player's scorecard is submitted. Any penalties for misconduct by a caddie (as defined in this section and in 3.03) will be applied to both player and caddie.

So, the player is responsible for the caddy's conduct and receives any penalties the caddy would get.

And the part that was the violation. 3.05

B. A caddie is a person who carries a player's equipment or provides other assistance during the round. Players may designate one caddie at a time during their round. A caddie must be at least 13 years of age and must comply with the same Official Rules of Disc Golf and Competition Manual their player must follow, including the dress code, although a caddie need not be a PDGA member nor Certified Official.

So, while the actual violation was of 3.05.B, the penalty falls under 812.B.1.

 

[Olorin]

BillFleming,

For myself, I have been following the whole controversy from the beginning and studying the whole situation in great depth. I have read everything relevant from sources as close to the issue as possible, and listened to multiple podcasts. IMO, Elaine King's interview on Smashboxx with Terry Miller is the most important. This situation with the new rule is so ambiguous that people should stop making definitive statements about the rules involved. Personally, I think that only the chairman of the Rules Committee and the chairman of the Competition Committee can state a definitive conclusion. I think they need to consult with each other to reach a verdict, and I suspect that they have already done so. The TD, Robert Leonard, has already explained his position. I am only seeking facts and clarity.

 

[BillFleming]

BillFleming,

For myself, I have been following the whole controversy from the beginning and studying the whole situation in great depth. I have read everything relevant from sources as close to the issue as possible, and listened to multiple podcasts. IMO, Elaine King's interview on Smashboxx with Terry Miller is the most important. This situation with the new rule is so ambiguous that people should stop making definitive statements about the rules involved. Personally, I think that only the chairman of the Rules Committee and the chairman of the Competition Committee can state a definitive conclusion. I think they need to consult with each other to reach a verdict, and I suspect that they have already done so. The TD, Robert Leonard, has already explained his position. I am only seeking facts and clarity.

I'm not sure what was ambiguous about it. But I'll keep quiet after this and keep my thoughts to myself on this topic.

 

[Olorin]

I'm not sure what was ambiguous about it. But I'll keep quiet after this and keep my thoughts to myself on this topic.

Some of the overall ambiguities are...

• what is the penalty for this infraction? [I've read and heard many conflicting opinions, and for the record, I personally believe that Elaine King got this wrong at the start.] {NOTE: I am a huge fan of Elaine and I have the highest respect for her character. I think she was trying to do the right thing, but she just made some mistakes because she is humn.}
• Which PDGA committee bears responsibility for this? Competition or Rules committee? [I personally did not know until Mr. Krupicka addressed the issue that the Competition committee is totally responsible and this is not even a Rules Committee issue.
• What is the role of media and a commentator?
• -In general, since it was a new rule that affected very few people, very many people were not even aware of it.
• To a lesser degree... in real life, who will take responsibility to call this infraction? Tournament officials have the authority to do so, but the common practice is to let the players on the card make the call. In this real life situation, would a tournament official really call one of the top 2 competitors on breaking this directive in the Competition Manual?

So BillFleming I didn't intend any aspersions on you. My comments were directed more to the world in general.

 

[txmxer]

Some of the overall ambiguities are...

• what is the penalty for this infraction? [I've read and heard many conflicting opinions, and for the record, I personally believe that Elaine King got this wrong at the start.] {NOTE: I am a huge fan of Elaine and I have the highest respect for her character. I think she was trying to do the right thing, but she just made some mistakes because she is humn.}
• Which PDGA committee bears responsibility for this? Competition or Rules committee? [I personally did not know until Mr. Krupicka addressed the issue that the Competition committee is totally responsible and this is not even a Rules Committee issue.
• What is the role of media and a commentator?
• -In general, since it was a new rule that affected very few people, very many people were not even aware of it.
• To a lesser degree... in real life, who will take responsibility to call this infraction? Tournament officials have the authority to do so, but the common practice is to let the players on the card make the call. In this real life situation, would a tournament official really call one of the top 2 competitors on breaking this directive in the Competition Manual?

So BillFleming I didn't intend any aspersions on you. My comments were directed more to the world in general.

I think you've hit on all the major points.

I believe 100% EK was trying to do what she thought was right, but flubbed it badly.

I also thought about the role as commentator. Definitely not a commentators role.

Although I understand your point about "what is the penalty?" It seems to me the only outcome to such a rule is follow it or be DQ'd once the violation is identified, which is what happened, KT complied with the rule.