[Help] Looking for a mid that flies like a Roc3 but has no bead

[Kodachrome]

Not if the op is throwing that far.

I agree the envy is a great tweener but it won't serve the same role at those power levels.

 

[ThinAir]

Can't understand this anti-bead phobia. Hang ups anyone? Throw the disc, play the game...

 

[rakamkram]

Could someone enlighten me as to why having a bead on a disc would lead to late releases? From what I can tell looking at the rocs I own, the bead is only on the outside of the rim, and when the disc is released from my hand, my grip really focuses on the inside rim of the disc, not the outside.

 

[dysmike]

Could someone enlighten me as to why having a bead on a disc would lead to late releases? From what I can tell looking at the rocs I own, the bead is only on the outside of the rim, and when the disc is released from my hand, my grip really focuses on the inside rim of the disc, not the outside.

Yep, I agree.. but like anything else, once you believe something.. it's so. Then again, I agree with the Glo Z Buzzz too. So who knows.

 

[ThinAir]

Sanity returning to thread...

 

[zendragon]

Not if the op is throwing that far.

I agree the envy is a great tweener but it won't serve the same role at those power levels.

I didn't see how far he said he was throwing, only the flight chart that put them all at under 300'. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means, I only get my Envy out to about 250', but the last time I threw a Roc I was getting similar distance. Maybe it's just because I've seen Mike C through his Envys 400+ that I assume with better form than mine, they could easily replace a mid at around 300' of power.

 

[Oklahyzer]

...that's why I referred you to the wing design. Being steeply angled it raises the PLH, for one thing...bead or no bead.

Not to pick nits in a bead thread which has gone far beyond silly, but this statement about PLH is...wth. You might need to study up on PLH to understand it better. It is useful for comparing ONE disc mold to itself and only itself, from run to run. It is not a factor of design or something that you can compare from model A to model B.

Beads are a very minor part of design and flight...it's in the wing, the nose, and the flight plate...like the whole rest of the disc besides any bead that may or may not be there.

 

[MonkeyShine]

Not to pick nits in a bead thread which has gone far beyond silly, but this statement about PLH is...wth. You might need to study up on PLH to understand it better. It is useful for comparing ONE disc mold to itself and only itself, from run to run. It is not a factor of design or something that you can compare from model A to model B.

I disagree with this, but it might just be a misunderstanding on my part of the terminology. Look at the Nukes: they raised the plh to make the Nuke OS, and they lowered it to make the Nuke SS, all other factors being apparently identical. Compare the three models and I challenge thee to find any other difference. But again, I don't design discs, and my only experience w injection molding was three months at a temp job. Still, might be more than yours

 

[rorlick]

I disagree with this, but it might just be a misunderstanding on my part of the terminology. Look at the Nukes: they raised the plh to make the Nuke OS, and they lowered it to make the Nuke SS, all other factors being apparently identical. Compare the three models and I challenge thee to find any other difference. But again, I don't design discs, and my only experience w injection molding was three months at a temp job. Still, might be more than yours

It is a misunderstanding on your part. while that could hold true for the nuke(though I doubt it), it wouldn't work comparing a nuke to say, a destroyer. The parting line is the tiny line of plastic all the way around the disc from where the two halves of the mold are stuck together. One destroyer run may have a higher or lower PLH than another run etc..

 

[MonkeyShine]

It is a misunderstanding on your part. while that could hold true for the nuke(though I doubt it), it wouldn't work comparing a nuke to say, a destroyer. The parting line is the tiny line of plastic all the way around the disc from where the two halves of the mold are stuck together. One destroyer run may have a higher or lower PLH than another run etc..

And the parting line is necessarily at the very outermost edge of the nose. So set one each of Nuke, Nuke SS, and Nuke OS on a table, and I can tell you which is which based on plh, or else I can call it the "nose height", but they are at the same location on a disc, so what difference does it make? Besides a sudden rise in your blood pressure?

 

[ThinAir]

Not to pick nits in a bead thread which has gone far beyond silly, but this statement about PLH is...wth. You might need to study up on PLH to understand it better. It is useful for comparing ONE disc mold to itself and only itself, from run to run. It is not a factor of design or something that you can compare from model A to model B.

Beads are a very minor part of design and flight...it's in the wing, the nose, and the flight plate...like the whole rest of the disc besides any bead that may or may not be there.

PLH...if you want to be technical, then it's the fine line on the outer edge of the disc where the 2 halves of the mold meet. We could call it "wing leading edge height", if you prefer. And if you don't think the height makes a difference from mold to mold, you might want to compare a Firebird to a Sidewinder...or even a Zone to a Magnet.

Gee really? However, you are mistaken to minimize the effect beads have on disc flight. Ask yourself(or the mfgrs) why so many mids and putters have beads of varying size. They must just put them on discs for the heck of it, or to bother certain people, right?

 

[ThinAir]

I disagree with this, but it might just be a misunderstanding on my part of the terminology. Look at the Nukes: they raised the plh to make the Nuke OS, and they lowered it to make the Nuke SS, all other factors being apparently identical. Compare the three models and I challenge thee to find any other difference. But again, I don't design discs, and my only experience w injection molding was three months at a temp job. Still, might be more than yours

You have the right idea. And the 3 different Nukes is a good example. Although, with wide-rimmed high speed drivers, you can have a relatively low wing edge while still being stable-overstable. That's more of a "speed stability" issue, however. Other factors are notches on the wing and/or how concave vs flat the underside of the wing is. Innova's less stable "L" wing features a straight tapered underside of the wing. Discraft uses the same on the Avenger SS and Buzzz SS. I don't know about the Nuke SS, I don't own one.

 

[runningDoc]

There was this hard very very rigid grippy plastic dynamic disc that I threw that was like a roc3 top only flatter, shallower comet bottom but with minimal/no bead bottom. It was wider diameter definitely a midrange.

One of the local pros let me thow it, he's sponsored by innova and it was a tourney player pack giveaway.

Anyway we all didn't know the disc model because of the tourney stamp and no one in the area threw dynamic discs but the thing flew like a comet, dead straight, eaaasssy distance (300ft with regular throws off the tee), seemed to be neutral brand new, but also held the line and had some HSS when torqued.

I went to play my round then after asked the innova pro if I could throw it again and he said: "I was going to give it to you for free but I couldn't find you so I gave it to someone else".

 

[5QU166Y]

There was this hard very very rigid grippy plastic dynamic disc that I threw that was like a roc3 top only flatter, shallower comet bottom but with minimal/no bead bottom. It was wider diameter definitely a midrange.

One of the local pros let me thow it, he's sponsored by innova and it was a tourney player pack giveaway.

Anyway we all didn't know the disc model because of the tourney stamp and no one in the area threw dynamic discs but the thing flew like a comet, dead straight, eaaasssy distance (300ft with regular throws off the tee), seemed to be neutral brand new, but also held the line and had some HSS when torqued.

I went to play my round then after asked the innova pro if I could throw it again and he said: "I was going to give it to you for free but I couldn't find you so I gave it to someone else".

Sounds like a Fugitive.

 

[PMantle]

Not to pick nits in a bead thread which has gone far beyond silly, but this statement about PLH is...wth. You might need to study up on PLH to understand it better. It is useful for comparing ONE disc mold to itself and only itself, from run to run. It is not a factor of design or something that you can compare from model A to model B.

This is not even close to true re: drivers. Anyone can get a pretty good idea on disc stability based upon amount of wing dropping down from PL. All really understable discs have this in common. All overstable discs have this in common. This is a myth I would love to see die.

 

[rorlick]

And the parting line is necessarily at the very outermost edge of the nose. So set one each of Nuke, Nuke SS, and Nuke OS on a table, and I can tell you which is which based on plh, or else I can call it the "nose height", but they are at the same location on a disc, so what difference does it make? Besides a sudden rise in your blood pressure?

Yeah you got me this just really makes my blood boil. I'm literally shaking with rage.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13889

Well... assuming the 2 discs in the picture above came from the exact same mold, the PLH will dictate how overstable the disc will be. Well, that's the extremely simplified way of stating it but that statement still holds up well in practice. I underlined "the exact same mold" because this is very important. No, San Marino Rocs and Rancho Rocs are not the same mold.

 

[MonkeyShine]

Yeah you got me this just really makes my blood boil. I'm literally shaking with rage.

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13889

Okay, sorry for being snippy. I read the article, and I see what's going on. I thought of PLH as a part of the disc, like the wing or the nose or the rim. Really, its referring to a characteristic of molded objects.

Still, the article is merely explaining how you can use PLH to determine how to compare two discs from the same mold. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that stability is caused by a number of factors, and you can get a good idea of how a disc will fly before you've even thrown it, and one factor is the height of the nose, which I was calling PLH.

And if you haven't put the three Nuke molds on a table, you're not going to see what I'm talking about. You could also set all of Prodigy's fairway drivers down, and the difference you'd notice is the curvature of the underside of the wing, that's how they changed the stability across molds, among other factors.

And since this whole hoopla was about beads to begin with.... Yes, a bead is a design characteristic that is intended to do two things: First, to create a "feel", which some people like, and some people don't. There is a video, I think its the one with Feldberg and Climo, "Learn to Play the Champions' Way", where Feldberg explains to set the bead over the crease under the first knuckle of your index finger, he says, "That's what the bead is there for".

Secondly, a bead is going to add stability to the disc. That's not to say overstable discs MUST have a bead, or that understable discs CAN'T have a bead, after all, an Innova Wolf has a bead, and its stupid flippy. But one could assume it would be SUPER stupid flippy without the bead.

 

[ThinAir]

Okay, sorry for being snippy. I read the article, and I see what's going on. I thought of PLH as a part of the disc, like the wing or the nose or the rim. Really, its referring to a characteristic of molded objects.

Still, the article is merely explaining how you can use PLH to determine how to compare two discs from the same mold. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that stability is caused by a number of factors, and you can get a good idea of how a disc will fly before you've even thrown it, and one factor is the height of the nose, which I was calling PLH.

And if you haven't put the three Nuke molds on a table, you're not going to see what I'm talking about. You could also set all of Prodigy's fairway drivers down, and the difference you'd notice is the curvature of the underside of the wing, that's how they changed the stability across molds, among other factors.

And since this whole hoopla was about beads to begin with.... Yes, a bead is a design characteristic that is intended to do two things: First, to create a "feel", which some people like, and some people don't. There is a video, I think its the one with Feldberg and Climo, "Learn to Play the Champions' Way", where Feldberg explains to set the bead over the crease under the first knuckle of your index finger, he says, "That's what the bead is there for".

Secondly, a bead is going to add stability to the disc. That's not to say overstable discs MUST have a bead, or that understable discs CAN'T have a bead, after all, an Innova Wolf has a bead, and its stupid flippy. But one could assume it would be SUPER stupid flippy without the bead.

Yes...

wing design: positive lift and negative lift

bead: drag

 

[Aim For The Chains]

This is not even close to true re: drivers. Anyone can get a pretty good idea on disc stability based upon amount of wing dropping down from PL. All really understable discs have this in common. All overstable discs have this in common. This is a myth I would love to see die.

:hfive: If I set a disc on the table or eye it up and the wing edge meets the bottom of the disc... welp its understable.

 

[ThinAir]

:hfive: If I set a disc on the table or eye it up and the wing edge meets the bottom of the disc... welp its understable.

Not sure what you're arguing. You must know a disc of the same mold with higher PLH(or wing edge height) is going to be more stable than one with a lower PLH.

BUT, you must also know that a hallmark of overstable discs is how high the edge of the wing is. Predator, Firebird, Banshee, Trident, XXX, Whippet, etc, etc. And this also includes putters. Look at a Zone or Jokeri as 2 examples. What's the prominent differentiating feature? A very high wing edge. The Tensor...same thing compared to MVP's other mids. Think this is by accident?