Natalie Ryan and the Transgender Issue

[BillFleming]

There are lots of people who think it is unfair that Natalie Ryan, a transgender woman, was allowed to play FPO. Let's look at some facts about Natalie Ryan and the DGLO.

Round 1: Scored 61 for third place. Page Pierce and Catrina Allen did better than that.
Round 2. Scored 58 for first place. Best score of the round, but only 4 strokes ahead of Emily and others.
Round 3. Scored 64 for 11th place. Ohn Scoggins scored 59 and there were others that did better than Natalie.

Natalie did not run away with this tournament, she only won by 2 strokes. And two rounds she wasn't even the best player. It's not like her originally being male helped her any.

Now in another sport it is different. Lia Thomas is a transgender swimmer. She has absolutely dominated her female opponents. From Sports Illustrated..."Thomas throttled her competition. She set pool, school and Ivy League records en route to becoming the nation's most powerful female collegiate swimmer. Photos of Thomas resting at a pool wall and waiting for the rest of the field to finish have become a popular visual shorthand of her dominance."

So, are there some sports where a transgender woman (ex-male) has an advantage? Obviously. Is that an issue in disc golf? I'd say obviously not. The DGLO was very close and Natalie's win really can't be said to be due to her originally being male. Unlike Lia Thomas, Natalie isn't setting records with her wins and she's not outclassing her opponents.

Maybe someday there will be a transgender FPO player who just clobbers her opponents, but that isn't happening now.

SI article:
https://www.si.com/college/2022/03/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimmer-transgender-woman-daily-cover

 

[Hampstead]

Oh boy....

 

[RowingBoats]

There are lots of people who think it is unfair that Natalie Ryan, a transgender woman, was allowed to play FPO. Let's look at some facts about Natalie Ryan and the DGLO.

Round 1: Scored 61 for third place. Page Pierce and Catrina Allen did better than that.
Round 2. Scored 58 for first place. Best score of the round, but only 4 strokes ahead of Emily and others.
Round 3. Scored 64 for 11th place. Ohn Scoggins scored 59 and there were others that did better than Natalie.

Natalie did not run away with this tournament, she only won by 2 strokes. And two rounds she wasn't even the best player. It's not like her originally being male helped her any.

Now in another sport it is different. Lia Thomas is a transgender swimmer. She has absolutely dominated her female opponents. From Sports Illustrated..."Thomas throttled her competition. She set pool, school and Ivy League records en route to becoming the nation's most powerful female collegiate swimmer. Photos of Thomas resting at a pool wall and waiting for the rest of the field to finish have become a popular visual shorthand of her dominance."

So, are there some sports where a transgender woman (ex-male) has an advantage? Obviously. Is that an issue in disc golf? I'd say obviously not. The DGLO was very close and Natalie's win really can't be said to be due to her originally being male. Unlike Lia Thomas, Natalie isn't setting records with her wins and she's not outclassing her opponents.

Maybe someday there will be a transgender FPO player who just clobbers her opponents, but that isn't happening now.

SI article:
https://www.si.com/college/2022/03/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimmer-transgender-woman-daily-cover

This issue is going to require thoughtful, evidence based progression, for sure.

Lia is not going to be able to compete with the upcoming changes to the rules. Going forward, a transition will need to have occurred before age 12. I personally don't think rulings like this are incorrect, I'm going to listen to the evidence and defer to people who know a lot more than I do about the subject.

What makes me sad and frustrated, is that the people most loudly 'offended' by transgender athletes are going to be the same people voting for the lawmakers trying to make younger transitions illegal.

 

[Streets]

Hmmmm....

Locked, 'Filled, or Deleted? opcorn:

 

[BillFleming]

This issue is going to require thoughtful, evidence based progression, for sure.

Lia is not going to be able to compete with the upcoming changes to the rules. Going forward, a transition will need to have occurred before age 12. I personally don't think rulings like this are incorrect, I'm going to listen to the evidence and defer to people who know a lot more than I do about the subject.

What makes me sad and frustrated, is that the people most loudly 'offended' by transgender athletes are going to be the same people voting for the lawmakers trying to make younger transitions illegal.

I agree. Let's see what happens going forward. Rules can always be changed. If it is shown that transgender disc golfers do have an advantage (which facts show that they don't AT THIS TIME), then make a rules change.

What really bothers me is that on the sites (including this one) where I have seen comments about Natalie, it is a majority of men (based on screen names) that have an issue. This doesn't affect me as I don't play FPO, I'm a male. I might have an opinion, but it is only the female disc golfers whose opinions matter in this.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Now in another sport it is different. Lia Thomas is a transgender swimmer. She has absolutely dominated her female opponents. From Sports Illustrated..."Thomas throttled her competition. She set pool, school and Ivy League records en route to becoming the nation's most powerful female collegiate swimmer. Photos of Thomas resting at a pool wall and waiting for the rest of the field to finish have become a popular visual shorthand of her dominance."

This is so disingenuous. We're talking about a fifth year senior, who as far as it pertains to her performance as a woman spent the entire extra year training. Had Lia Thomas continued to compete as a male, being a fifth year monster was entirely likely. You know what Lia Thomas might have done? She might have wound up setting pool, school, and Ivy League records en route to becoming a champion. As a freshman swimmer she held the 7th best time in the nation at her best distance. As a sophomore swimmer she was the Ivy League runner up at 3 individual distances. And we're talking about performance as a fifth year senior.

And lets be clear - she absolutely was not the nation's most powerful female collegiate swimmer. The much younger Kate Douglass was far and away the best swimmer in the nation.

 

[discerdoo]

Hmmmm....

Locked, 'Filled, or Deleted? opcorn:

All of the above please!

 

[dmoore1998]

I'll try to keep this short and sweet and point out that WHO you are comparing matters greatly. Are we comparing top men (who then transition to women) to top women? Are we comparing average men (who then transition to women) to top women? Are we comparing them to the average woman?

I'll use an example not related to either person mentioned, because it's more about the idea than these specific people. If I am a 21 year old transgender woman who starts to dominate college basketball...I think it says very different things about the fairness of it if I have been playing since I was 5 and dominating the male game...vs just picking up basketball last year with no real experience and dominating women's college basketball based purely on athletic prowess. And you can change "dominate" to "compete at a top level" or whatever level you think is relevant. I think it says something meaningful about the advantage or lack of advantage based on how I performed in that activity pre-transition against my same biological sex.

 

[ru4por]

Trolling for trolls is still trolling.

The issue has been quite thoroughly explored on this site and will only serve to give who wish to promote hate, a platform. Close it down. Unless there is a way to restrict the thread to the FPO (FP.....I guess it does not have to be restricted to Open) membership of DGCR.

 

[Streets]

Trolling for trolls is still trolling.

The issue has been quite thoroughly explored on this site and will only serve to give who wish to promote hate, a platform. Close it down. Unless there is a way to restrict the thread to the FPO (FP.....I guess it does not have to be restricted to Open) membership of DGCR.

Agreed...it's only a matter of time before the mouthbreathers start throwing in their "two cents" on the issue.

 

[discerdoo]

Trolling for trolls is still trolling.

The issue has been quite thoroughly explored on this site and will only serve to give who wish to promote hate, a platform. Close it down. Unless there is a way to restrict the thread to the FPO (FP.....I guess it does not have to be restricted to Open) membership of DGCR.

C'mon RU. This is another opportunity for you to scold people who disagree with you and accuse them of being haters.

Doing my best to get it shixtcanned, boss!

 

[Dcinmd]

I will only say this, I might have crossed paths with Natalie once or twice. One time stuck out because Natalie was working that day between rounds of a Pro day tournament harder than anyone else on the course. So much so that I remember it two years later.

The passion and drive is there, and I am not surprised by Natalie success. Natalie has put the work in on the course.

 

[biscoe]

I will only say this, I might have crossed paths with Natalie once or twice. One time stuck out because Natalie was working that day between rounds of a Pro day tournament harder than anyone else on the course. So much so that I remember it two years later.

The passion and drive is there, and I am not surprised by Natalie success. Natalie has put the work in on the course.

Natalie works harder at disc golf than any player I have ever seen and I have seen a lot of them.

 

[dmoore1998]

One of the more interesting (to me) things is actually the divergence of gender and sex. I don't think it's a stretch to say that at the point many of these female/women's versions of professional sports started...male/man and woman/female were used interchangeably. It's an...interesting...situation now that we can have male women and female men. So the WNBA...was it meant to be the women's NBA...or the female NBA? I know what the name says...but again, the interchangeability.

Disc golf might be the most interesting version because it is called FPO (female) but also referred to as the women's division. Most sports seem to opt for the reference of woman/women...

I won't even get into the interesting reference of some sports (like gymnastics for example) that might reference "women's gymnastics" but with non-adults that I may not actually think of as "women" as much as girls/children.

I wonder how much of the nomenclature will change going forward.