No Discraft Pro's on Lead Cards Lately...

[bhadella]

Tangent discussion of the state of touring pros:

As the speed of discs has grown rapidly in the last five years, I think the guys that have great power and accuracy both forehand and backhand (Ricky & Paul most notably) have come to dominate the sport. We've continued to see an influx of these well-rounded players that are able to use the wide rim discs with great skill and accuracy with forehands that just weren't capable even 5 years ago. Some of the guys that can flick when needed (Nikko, Will, Nate) but aren't 100% comfortable throwing it are going to be able to keep close. IMO, it's hard to imagine that the 99% backhand only guys (like Feldberg) will be able to keep up over a long week of playing like Worlds. The increased level of skill needed for a backhander to keep up with a combo-thrower is a big hurdle.

 

[smyith]

I don't care what they throw.

that's a lie. if you had said "I don't care what brand they throw." I would believe you. But you know full well when a pro rips an awesome shot you are curious what disc they used to do it.

Discraft's team is just like their lineup, the majority of it is meaningless besides a few exceptional standouts.
What have they really brought us in the last few years disc wise that matter? It's like they are going to try and make their living off of the Buzzzs, Comets, Drones, Nukes, Challengers, and Magnets.
I would like to see the second largest DG company actually make some ripples in the water consistently.

 

[burdphil]

Nate is in that second tier of players right now.

The top tier is Ricky Will Paul and maybe Dave.

But there is a big drop in wins after that.

In NT and larger fields, almost every single time Ricky Will or Paul wins.

Nate is amazing player and an amazing talent, but he hasn't honestly done too much since that worlds (well he won an NT and the players cup shortly after, but last year he only won one A Tier and nothing bigger)

You should probably include Nikko in the top tier as well. He's finished in the top four in every tournament he's played in so far this year... that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[mashnut]

Tangent discussion of the state of touring pros:

As the speed of discs has grown rapidly in the last five years, I think the guys that have great power and accuracy both forehand and backhand (Ricky & Paul most notably) have come to dominate the sport. We've continued to see an influx of these well-rounded players that are able to use the wide rim discs with great skill and accuracy with forehands that just weren't capable even 5 years ago. Some of the guys that can flick when needed (Nikko, Will, Nate) but aren't 100% comfortable throwing it are going to be able to keep close. IMO, it's hard to imagine that the 99% backhand only guys (like Feldberg) will be able to keep up over a long week of playing like Worlds. The increased level of skill needed for a backhander to keep up with a combo-thrower is a big hurdle.

The flip side of that is that the forehand and overhand shots put more stress on the body, especially joints, than backhand shots do. Over a long week like worlds someone who threw mostly backhands and kept up might have be less worn out when it comes down to the final round.

That said, I agree with your point. The young athletic players who have both shots as staples are slowly pulling away from the older players who learned to shape every line they needed with only a backhand.

 

[Tpro]

Whos to say If the Prodigy thing doesnt work out that Innova/Discraft would even take those players back? I mean if you think about it, them leaving free'd up a little cash they have been throwing out. Without any real income coming from those tournig players. Its been said a million times Who really goes out and buyz discs because the Tour guys throw them?

AlSO....Discraft has ULTIMATE! $$$$$

 

[burdphil]

that's a lie. if you had said "I don't care what brand they throw." I would believe you. But you know full well when a pro rips an awesome shot you are curious what disc they used to do it.

Discraft's team is just like their lineup, the majority of it is meaningless besides a few exceptional standouts.

That's the case for every disc manufacturer. Look at Innova... all the pros throw the same discs... rocs, destroyers, teebirds, firebirds, kc pro aviars. Maybe a roadrunner or a leopard or a couple of others mixed in here or there. Mostly everything else is just fluff...

 

[18Down]

Star power sells simply put. Its a very common marketing practice used in every marketable product. Creating a quality product helps but when Discraft has only made ONE disc, the Buzzz, to help them sell they their brand I understand why none of the top players want to be a part of their team. Innova still controls 90% of the market in terms of sales but they sure did loose all that star power. Time will surely tell if this star power at Prodigy will have any effect on the market share of the other 10% shared by a dozen other manufacturers.

 

[Tpro]

Star power sells simply put. Its a very common marketing practice used in every marketable product. Creating a quality product helps but when Discraft has only made ONE disc, the Buzzz, to help them sell they their brand I understand why none of the top players want to be a part of their team. Innova still controls 90% of the market in terms of sales but they sure did loose all that star power. Time will surely tell if this star power at Prodigy will have any effect on the market share of the other 10% shared by a dozen other manufacturers.

^It wont.....

That Being said Discraft has a pretty SOLID line up in all Seriousness. :doh:

 

[bradharris]

Innova still controls 90% of the market in terms of sales but they sure did loose all that star power.

Have any stats to back up this assertion or are you just making up numbers?

 

[mashnut]

Have any stats to back up this assertion or are you just making up numbers?

That number has been thrown around for a long time, I think DaveMac at Gateway even mentioned that as a rough estimate in one of his youtube rants. I doubt it's that far off, though with the number of new manufacturers fighting over the various niche markets it might be just a hair lower now.

 

[SirRaph]

The flip side of that is that the forehand and overhand shots put more stress on the body, especially joints, than backhand shots do. Over a long week like worlds someone who threw mostly backhands and kept up might have be less worn out when it comes down to the final round.

That said, I agree with your point. The young athletic players who have both shots as staples are slowly pulling away from the older players who learned to shape every line they needed with only a backhand.

That has been an interesting trend, the rise of the forehand. The guys in the top tiers of pros are going to have their turnover shots pretty well down pat. But, forehanding is a more consistent shot than a turnover no matter how much you practice. Even if you could 100% master the turnover shot, the second the wind picks up, the forehanders are using the more reliable, more overstable discs, while you're trying to adjust your disc selection to meet the wind conditions.
I don't know that FH ability is a perfect measuring stick for success in the pro ranks yet though. Avery and Doss both FH well. Not quite as well as Uli, Wysocki and McBeth do, but well enough to use it consistently when it benefits them. Doss has been in the mix, but Avery hasn't had much big tourney success for some time.

I don't know that I completely agree with the idea that forehanding puts a significant amount more wear on the body. I've heard that argument/point a few times before. It does put more wear on my body...because I'm not very good at it. My forehand is 80% arm, and 20% wrist. You watch Uli or McBeth and those guys, and most of their FH shots look effortless.
It's basically the same motion as a pitcher uses, and they're able to approach 100 pitches per game every 3-4 days for an entire season of 1,045,984 games or however long the MLB season goes...and they're putting WAY more power/torque into it.

 

[SirRaph]

Being a married man, I can speak to this point. I think that part of the reason the younger players are having so much success is because they're still so young that they don't have the same commitments that a married man with a career, a house, etc has. Even if I dedicated all my free time to practicing and playing DG, I'm still never going to touch the practice time that a young, single guy will.

 

[Halcón]

Being a married man, I can speak to this point. I think that part of the reason the younger players are having so much success is because they're still so young that they don't have the same commitments that a married man with a career, a house, etc has. Even if I dedicated all my free time to practicing and playing DG, I'm still never going to touch the practice time that a young, single guy will.

This x 1,000,000

And other pro athletes can work and have the wife and kids because their sport IS their job. Only when DG earnings become lucritive enough to sustain a household will you see family guys at the top of MPO leaderboards.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Being a married man, I can speak to this point. I think that part of the reason the younger players are having so much success is because they're still so young that they don't have the same commitments that a married man with a career, a house, etc has. Even if I dedicated all my free time to practicing and playing DG, I'm still never going to touch the practice time that a young, single guy will.

:thmbup:

Major Agreement

Except Dave, he seems to just keeps cruising along on his Bus with the young guys, cute girlfriend, smokes and now the beard. At least that is the impression I get. I guess if you can make a living on it as you get older, and don't settle down, you can still do it. But most people get the urge for stability. My guess is Nate and Avery are in that boat.

 

[Tpro]

http://mlultimate.com/innova-signs-as-disc-partner/

Innova, Daredevil, Wham-O, and other approved ultimate discs have about a 1% combined market share in ultimate, and the sport is growing as fast as DG. Most ultimate players have no idea that Discraft makes golf discs, too.

No Kidding or that Innova Daredevil or other companies; other than maybe Whamo even make Ultimate Discs

 

[JC17393]

Star power sells simply put. Its a very common marketing practice used in every marketable product. Creating a quality product helps but when Discraft has only made ONE disc, the Buzzz, to help them sell they their brand I understand why none of the top players want to be a part of their team. Innova still controls 90% of the market in terms of sales but they sure did loose all that star power. Time will surely tell if this star power at Prodigy will have any effect on the market share of the other 10% shared by a dozen other manufacturers.

Star power certainly sells products, if the "star" is Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Lebron James. Problem is, disc golf has no "stars". There obviously isn't a name in our sport that transcends the sport itself the way Jordan or Tiger do. There isn't even a name in the sport that has any gravitas beyond the hardcore serious players (except maybe Climo, but only because he's had his name on a line of discs for 15+ years). Most casual players don't have a clue who Ricky Wysocki or Will Schusterick or Sarah Hokom or Paige Pierce are. If they recognize any top players' names, it's the ones whose names are stamped on their discs (like Climo or Doss or Schultz). But the names aren't the reason they bought the disc. They bought the disc because it had a cool name or their buddy has one that flies great or it was the brightest colored disc in the store they bought it.

I run a course and pro shop. On nice spring/summer days, I see 80-100+ players come through a day. Most of the time when a player comes in and wants to buy a disc, they don't have a clue what they're looking for. They just want one that "goes really straight and really far", or if they've owned discs before, they want to get another one of the disc they used to have but lost. When I ask them what it was so I can hand them exactly what they had before, they say "it was an Innova" or "it was a Discraft". When I ask them to be more specific, they look at me like I've got six heads and say something like "it was green" or "it was kinda see-through". Most of these players don't have a clue what mold or type of plastic they're throwing, and they don't care. These represent the majority of disc buyers out there.

Trust me, beyond the people who are playing tournaments regularly and the few hardcore enthusiasts who frequent message boards like this one, who throws what brand has exactly zero impact on disc sales.

 

[nolangherity]

i only throw mvp discs because mike c and johnny depth do, so it does matter actually.

 

[DG_Before_Breakfast]

Trust me, beyond the people who are playing tournaments regularly and the few hardcore enthusiasts who frequent message boards like this one, who throws what brand has exactly zero impact on disc sales.

Makes sense.

So what is Prodigy thinking will make them money?

That their discs look cooler? Their Logo? They expect the names, D1, M3, etc. to inspire people to buy them? Or they think their Discs will become famous because they are superior?

I don't really know where the money comes from in Disc Golf. My casual player expenses are 90% buying Discs. People pay to play in Tournaments, I assume most of that goes to the clubs, or to pay for the gift packs. So I'm just guessing they must expect to have another angle on making money.

 

[bradharris]

There isn't even a name in the sport that has any gravitas beyond the hardcore serious players (except maybe Climo, but only because he's had his name on a line of discs for 15+ years). Most casual players don't have a clue who Ricky Wysocki or Will Schusterick or Sarah Hokom or Paige Pierce are. If they recognize any top players' names, it's the ones whose names are stamped on their discs (like Climo or Doss or Schultz). But the names aren't the reason they bought the disc.

My buddies who are very casual players only know of one pro: Nikko. And the only reason they know of him is because of the fro.

They barely even know his name, to them he's "that guy with the hair."

They certainly don't care what he's throwing.

 

[_MTL_]

A casual buddy of mine told me had a KC Avenger once.

Turns it out it was a Nate Doss, obviously, but the KC line was so engrinaed in his head, he thought all signature discs were KC.