OB rule and benefit of the doubt...

[geoblime]

Scenario over the weekend:
250 ft. down the fairway there's a 3 ft. deep creek running across from right to left. The opening of the creek is also around 3ft. at the top. There's white paint defining the OB line at the waters edge in the creek. A drive clearly enters the creek on the fly and comes to rest just in OB right next to the farther line. This is where opinions differed. Does the benefit of the doubt go to the player saying the disc hit the farther side of the bank and then went OB or the near side was the last place IB? We felt that clearly the disc hit the farther side as it's almost impossible for a disc to enter the creek on the fly and not hit the far side of the bank. Other people said you can't assume it hit and must take it from the near side. I see this logic also so we (dubs tourney) opted to not argue a ton and took it on the near side. This created a 10ft. putt with a more difficult angle than the 7ft. putt on the other side. We (and a couple other people not in our group) agreed the benefit should go to the players. Thoughts?

 

[JC17393]

Unless someone sees the disc hit on the in-bounds side, or there's some kind of physical evidence (say a chunk of mud on the disc and a divot in the bank), you can't assume that it did.

However, it is the group's call on where to mark the lie for the next throw. If the majority think it hit on the far side, then you can play it from that side.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The weak design is a separate issue.

 

[geoblime]

The weak design is a separate issue.

Yeah, nature can be weak some times :doh:

 

[Cgkdisc]

First, OB too close to pin. Second, should probably be casual water. Third, if designer insists on OB, there should be a drop zone so all you worry about is if the disc ends up OB and you don't have to figure out where it last touched IB.

 

[araytx]

Unless someone sees the disc hit on the in-bounds side, or there's some kind of physical evidence (say a chunk of mud on the disc and a divot in the bank), you can't assume that it did.

However, it is the group's call on where to mark the lie for the next throw. If the majority think it hit on the far side, then you can play it from that side.

^^^ This

First, OB too close to pin. Second, should probably be casual water. Third, if designer insists on OB, there should be a drop zone so all you worry about is if the disc ends up OB and you don't have to figure out where it last touched IB.

^^^^^^^^ and This!

 

[JoakimBL]

Yeah, nature can be weak some times :doh:

Nature doesn't design the hole. It doesn't place the baskets and it doesn't define OB. So nature plays no part in the bad design

 

[mrDROCK]

On another note.
So you are saying a TD shouldn't put a basket in OB and make you carry the putt?
Not that I mind, I like the challenge of close OB. We have been playing with close OB to pins for our whole winter series. I think it helps even the playing field forcing some people to lay up instead of bombing the pin constantly.

 

[DavidSauls]

This created a 10ft. putt with a more difficult angle than the 7ft. putt on the other side. We (and a couple other people not in our group) agreed the benefit should go to the players. Thoughts?

Shouldn't there be a 6' difference? The 3' for the width of the water, plus about 3' for the meter relief if you're on the basket side?

 

[DavidSauls]

Unless someone sees the disc hit on the in-bounds side, or there's some kind of physical evidence (say a chunk of mud on the disc and a divot in the bank), you can't assume that it did.

However, it is the group's call on where to mark the lie for the next throw. If the majority think it hit on the far side, then you can play it from that side.

This.

If you see it cross over the O.B. line on the tee side, but don't actually see it cross over the O.B. line on the basket side, and it comes to rest O.B......the lie should be on the tee side of the creek.

 

[scarpfish]

Generally, if you have a creek with a somewhat steep well defined bank, that might not be so steep and well defined in some places, its best to mark the OB line at the top of the bank with paint or rope, and not at the water's edge, so you don't end up with scenarios like this.

I also agree that assumptions shouldn't be made on what did happen based on what likely happened but wasn't actually witnessed.

 

[ToddL]

Benefit of the doubt does not mean making stuff up to benefit the thrower.

Fact: 1) Disc was in bounds on the short side of the creek. 2) Disc is now out of bounds
Speculation: 1) Disc hit IB on the far side and bounced backwards

If there is any evidence at all to back up the speculation, I'm happy to give it to the player. A divot in the mud with a correspond mud smear on the disc. A sound during the throw that sounded like it hit the bank hard enough to bounce back.
But with no evidence, there's nothing to doubt.

Benefit of the doubt would be if I saw a divot in the mud IB near the disc in the creek. Can I guarantee that divot was made by this throw? No, but I'll give it to the thrower. With no evidence, though, I can't give that to you.

 

[araytx]

On another note.
So you are saying a TD shouldn't put a basket in OB and make you carry the putt?
Not that I mind, I like the challenge of close OB. We have been playing with close OB to pins for our whole winter series. I think it helps even the playing field forcing some people to lay up instead of bombing the pin constantly.

Yes. As a TD I would never put a basket in OB. And wouldn't intentionally design like this. I believe one of the weakest designs is random OB in the middle of a fairway, like this is. Some courses with sidewalks running through them where the sidewalk is OB but short of and long past is safe come to mind.

I don't mind well-defined OB close to the pin with a safe lane on the opposite side of the pin from the OB ... (OB left/safe right; OB right/safe left; and OB deep/safe short are all OK with me). I wouldn't have safe short/OB a little long/safe a little longer. Very gimmicky and adds luck. You can have the risk/reward of running a putt without the extra gimmick

 

[mrDROCK]

Yes. As a TD I would never put a basket in OB. And wouldn't intentionally design like this. I believe one of the weakest designs is random OB in the middle of a fairway, like this is. Some courses with sidewalks running through them where the sidewalk is OB but short of and long past is safe come to mind.

I don't mind well-defined OB close to the pin with a safe lane on the opposite side of the pin from the OB ... (OB left/safe right; OB right/safe left; and OB deep/safe short are all OK with me). I wouldn't have safe short/OB a little long/safe a little longer. Very gimmicky and adds luck. You can have the risk/reward of running a putt without the extra gimmick

We have had some where the basket is placed on the intersection of OB paths with the grass leading up to the basket as the fairway. I think it rewards playing smart instead of just always rewarding the long distance throwers constantly running the basket for aces.
There is one that plays long and then has a basket on a 10'x10' concrete slab that is OB. So there is risk throwing long and going for it vs. being smart and laying up on the edge of the slab and putting in.

 

[PhattD]

I would say it's up to the group to decide where the disc went out of bounds using whatever evidence at hand. There are plenty of instances where it's impossible to know for sure what happened and you have to make a judgment call. I would say that arguments saying "we know it was in bounds on the near side" are valid. But I also think that when a disc ends up out of bounds blindly, where it was last in bounds can end up being a judgment call. If the group were to decide that it must have hit the far bank and then gone OB, I would be ok with that. I don't believe that the thrower should be given a lie on the far side just because it might have happened and you're giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[kenjiac]

I think the lie on the tee side was the right call. With no evidence of it hitting the basket side there is no doubt to benefit from. On another note OB by the basket can be fun. I love the pucker putts this green @ Hyzer Creek near me produces.

 

[jjpitt29]

I think the lie on the tee side was the right call. With no evidence of it hitting the basket side there is no doubt to benefit from. On another note OB by the basket can be fun. I love the pucker putts this green @ Hyzer Creek near me produces.

How can a basket be located in an OB area? Tee Pads can not be OB. Yes you can designate the tee pad as an IB area surrounded by OB. But can you designate the Basket as IB in the same way? Wouldn't this cause problems with stacked playing surfaces, etc?

 

[JC17393]

How can a basket be located in an OB area? Tee Pads can not be OB. Yes you can designate the tee pad as an IB area surrounded by OB. But can you designate the Basket as IB in the same way? Wouldn't this cause problems with stacked playing surfaces, etc?

QA2 applies nicely to cover this.

 

[chevis]

i like this design, but say you landed on top of the basket, would that be OB since you would mark your lie below the basket?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Not sure how they handle it there. But a "fair" way would be to mark it on the closest inbounds area where you can take a stance on the playing surface.