Overstable mid-range?

[jamsisjams]

if your turning over a z wasp and you know its bad form you should probobly work on your form rather than buy a disc that will mask the problem.

Wow...only one real good answer.

The rest ya'll get caught up in touting their favorite middy meat hook???

We're supposed to be helping each other, not hard selling for the Disc manufacturers. :?

jamsisjams...
Any disc a backhander can use a sidearmer can as well.
That Z Wasp should be your meat hook, not your line holdin middy.
Take a less Low Speed Stable middy (Buzzz, Shark, etc...) to a field and you will eventually figure out how to get them on a line w/o worries of them flippin.
Some mistakes I commonly catch myself doing with middys...
Overpowering them, ya can't put driver power on a middy and expect it to stay stable.
Flight plate alignment, if that flight plate isn't in line with your forearm...it'll flutter and turn.
*sigh* couldn't really help ya with they why unless we see your form in action.
None the less, DON'T go out and get an even more overstable disc as it will only cure the symptom, not the root cause.

Thanks for the tips on form. I already throw the wasp with less power and more emphasis on smooth form. Generally when I get it around and past the basketball court, when the disc skips, it skips straight--which is woods, not the basket. I'm looking to get more of a right curving skip. I absolutely agree that the shot comes down to my form, and when I can admit that I don't have perfect form then I should definitely be working on form.

Yet, again, this shot is consistently beset by wind. I've had smooth form with 60-75% power and have the wind pick up the disc and then kick it to the ground on its lip. Maybe the wasp is the perfect disc for this shot, maybe not, but in the mean time I'm looking for something with a little more low speed fade.

 

[Amateur]

Have you tried a DX Whippet? It's actually too overstable for me and I am replacing it with Sentinels.

Wow...only one real good answer.

Gotta remember. Forehand is different than backhand. The extra amount of spin makes discs fly less stable than they would backhand.

 

[MDR_3000]

....The extra amount of spin makes discs fly less stable than they would backhand.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around this....


It sounds made up.

 

[garublador1]

It sounds made up.

I don't buy it either, but I don't really have any concrete reasons.

First it was that there was less spin on forhand shots and that's why they ended up more understable, now it's that there's more spin. Personally I believe it's due to off-axis torque and nose angle, but I have a hard time saying that I'm certain.

I do know that I have a friend that throws almost exclusively forehand and his straightest disc is his Z XL and the only disc he can consistantly flip is a beat up Archangel.

 

[Amateur]

Are you telling me that forehand drives don't generate more spin?

I see now that I f'ed up my wording, but I meant what I said. I'll ealborate: A Z Wasp snapped backhand to 200 feet is going to fade pretty hard-light skip, where as a Z Wasp snapped forehand to 200 feet is will fade more gradually and probably skip forward. This test was done by me 1 minute ago in my back yard.

Garublador-I didn't say that.

Please correct me if I'm wrong,

 

[MDR_3000]

I don't know if it generates more spin or not. But more spin alone is not going to make a disc understable.

 

[swel3041]

Gotta remember. Forehand is different than backhand. The extra amount of spin makes discs fly less stable than they would backhand.

Im not sure thats entirely accurate. while it is easier to generate spin with less physical movement on a FH shot, which is going to make it more likely to turn over, its not supposed to do anything but make the disc fade in the opposite direction (in theory, and with correct technique). According to sidearmers like stokely, the disc should be able to hold the same line thrown either way. I.E. if you throw a teebird dead straigh RHBH, but turn it into a roller FH its not the fault of the disc its the form. Ive been desperate to develop a sidearm for utility purposes so Ive been watching alot of the local sidearm guys closely. The ones that are really good at it can sidearm any disc in there bag on an equal but opposite (maybe a little shorter) line as BH. the other 90% of them only FH with the most overstable disc they have and still manage to turn it over half the time because of poor release angel or massive off-axis torque.

 

[adamschneider]

I don't know if it generates more spin or not. But more spin alone is not going to make a disc understable.

All other things being equal, yes it will. Or at least, it'll make it behave more understably.

A disc turns over (acts "understable") because of the added lift on the left side (RHBH) due to that side having a higher airspeed than the right side. The greater the airspeed differential (i.e., the faster the spin), the greater the clockwise "roll." (The eventual fade to the left is caused by gyroscopic precession: upward pitch is translated to leftward roll in a counter-clockwise rotating object.)

That said, I've no idea whether off-axis torque (flutter) operates under the same principles, or whether forehand or backhand throws have more spin.

 

[garublador1]

Garublador-I didn't say that.

Sorry, my quote tags got messed up. I fixed it.

I don't know whether or not a forehand shot generates more, less or the same amount of spin as a backhand shot, but I don't believe that the differene in spin is enough to affect a disc's flight noticably. The scenerio with the two different fades could happen for other reasons. A shot that's turned over slightly, but still pretty straight overall won't fade as far off it's line as one that never flipped past flat.

 

[bigs]

Wow...only one real good answer.

The rest ya'll get caught up in touting their favorite middy meat hook???

We're supposed to be helping each other, not hard selling for the Disc manufacturers. :?

First off, he said that he occasionally, due to bad form, will turn over his Wasps. Then he went on to ask for advice about crazy overstable mids. That's why it's on the Equipment page.

It's not like he said "I keep turning over my mids. I need help" in the Technique thread and everyone told him to buy a more overstable disc.

I throw very little forehand. I only bust it out if I have no other option. When I do, I throw a Whippet, because I put a lot more snap/speed/spin/whatever on a disc forehand than I do backhand and, if I'm throwing forehand in the first place, I need something that won't flip on me.

 

[MDR_3000]

A disc turns over (acts "understable") because of the added lift on the left side (RHBH) due to that side having a higher airspeed than the right side.

how does that work?

 

[jamsisjams]

According to Discraft's forehand technique video, a forehand throw generates more spin, all other things equal.

I don't know if that's true but I do know that I am most comfortable throwing with a degree of anhyzer to begin with. While the throw comes back to form, I don't see a need to force myself into hyzer-flipping every mid-range.

 

[bigs]

Alright, I really don't know how the difference between backhand and forehand works, but I have noticed a considerable difference in the years I've been playing.

I don't think it's necessarily extra spin, or off-axis torque, or whatever.

If I throw a 300' backhand shot, I am snapping the disc fairly hard, but my arm is also moving pretty fast before and through the snap.

If I was to throw a 300' forehand shot (which I can't), arm speed would be much less of a factor, and I would be relying pretty much solely on snap to give the disc enough juice to get 300'. There's not much follow through on a forehand throw -- you're kind of trying to stop your hand abruptly so the disc will rip out and have power to fly.

They are different throws. Typically you don't see forehand throws that act like the opposite of a backhand shot. Where a righty hyzer would have a long gradual curve, a righty forehand hyzer would be straight for most of the flight, and then abruptly fade.

Honestly, I really don't know how to put it into words or how the science/technique of it works. I just know that they are different and this is the best I can explain it...

Oh, and there's definitely a reason that forehand dominant pros mainly throw discs like a Flick (duh), a Firebird, or a Predator.

 

[swel3041]

A disc turns over (acts "understable") because of the added lift on the left side (RHBH) due to that side having a higher airspeed than the right side.

how does that work?

its the same reason new players use a leopard for a straight disc and advance players use them for turnovers, or why some "overstable" discs are sometimes refered to as "pro stable". While his explanation was quite technical I'm pretty sure its about as accurate as it gets. more snap=more spin= acts more understable. Im sure blake will be able to explain it in a way thats easier to understand. saying a FH generates more spin is a relative concept because its compared to the amount of movement it takes to generate the same amount of snap with BH. If you can only turn over a disc with FH that flies overstable with BH you likely just need to slow down and smooth out the forehand technique.

 

[MDR_3000]

If I was to throw a 300' forehand shot (which I can't), arm speed would be much less of a factor, and I would be relying pretty much solely on snap to give the disc enough juice to get 300'. There's not much follow through on a forehand throw -- you're kind of trying to stop your hand abruptly so the disc will rip out and have power to fly.

Then you are doing it wrong. I also think you can jack up your elbow by doing it that way.

Oh, and there's definitely a reason that forehand dominant pros mainly throw discs like a Flick (duh), a Firebird, or a Predator.

that's easy, usually when you throw a forehand you want it to fade the opposite way of your backhand. It's easier to use an overstable disc, just like a backhand.

 

[bigs]

If I was to throw a 300' forehand shot (which I can't), arm speed would be much less of a factor, and I would be relying pretty much solely on snap to give the disc enough juice to get 300'. There's not much follow through on a forehand throw -- you're kind of trying to stop your hand abruptly so the disc will rip out and have power to fly.

Then you are doing it wrong. I also think you can jack up your elbow by doing it that way.

Relatively, there's little follow through.

This isn't worth trying to explain anymore...

 

[swel3041]

Oh, and there's definitely a reason that forehand dominant pros mainly throw discs like a Flick (duh), a Firebird, or a Predator.

because they can torque the crap out of it and it covers up any mistakes they might make.

theres definitly a reason why FH dominate pro's end up to injured to play after a while too.

 

[MDR_3000]

Relatively, there's little follow through.

This isn't worth trying to explain anymore...

I win!

 

[MDR_3000]

because they can torque the crap out of it and it covers up any mistakes they might make.

do you use understable discs for hyzer shots?

 

[swel3041]

ive got the first stokely vid so I pulled it up to remember exactly what he said about using discs sidearm. Ive hear many people say that stokely is (or was before he injured his elbow) one of the best sidearm throwers around. this is a comment he made in his first video reguarding disc selection.

quote from scott stokely video #1

a little secret of mine is that I do not have a sidearm disc. Every disc in my bag I throw backhand as well as sidearm. If for example the cyclone is the perfect disc for a certain left turn get flat type of hole, well if I approach that hole and it was a mirror image of that type of shot I would just throw the sidearm because that would just be reversing the spin.

Id like to get a hold of his other two videos and see the section about sidearm specifically but Im not gonna pay 25$ each for them.