Overstable mid-range?

[bigs]

because they can torque the crap out of it and it covers up any mistakes they might make.

do you use understable discs for hyzer shots?

Yup.

 

[MDR_3000]

hey, me too!

 

[Texas Made]

Champion Classic Roc, 175.
I have had one for 3 years and its beat to hell, still oversatble.
The Wippet is probly the most overstable disc ever....
In my opinion.

 

[roadkill1]

Lots of overstable drivers to choose from...... but I believe the poster is looking for a midrange

May be hard to find (check eBay) but the Ram is super overstable and I believe that's considered a mid.

 

[adamschneider]

A disc turns over (acts "understable") because of the added lift on the left side (RHBH) due to that side having a higher airspeed than the right side.

how does that work?

When a disc spins clockwise (viewed from above), the left side of the disc is moving forward; the right side is moving backward. Relative to the motionless fluid it's travelling through, the "airspeed" of the left side is faster than the right. Therefore, because a disc is in many ways an airfoil (wing), more lift is generated on the left side, and the disc tilts to the right.

This PDF from the Ottawa Disc Golf Club is the best -- possibly the only -- explanation I've seen for all of this: http://www.odgc.ca/files/dg-flightphysics-mkIV.pdf

 

[bigs]

If I was to throw a 300' forehand shot (which I can't), arm speed would be much less of a factor, and I would be relying pretty much solely on snap to give the disc enough juice to get 300'. There's not much follow through on a forehand throw -- you're kind of trying to stop your hand abruptly so the disc will rip out and have power to fly.

Then you are doing it wrong. I also think you can jack up your elbow by doing it that way.

So yeah, this was definitely wrong. I worded it extremely badly -- of course you need follow through. Basically trying to say that forehand is much more about the rip and the snap. A good example would be a noobie player without any snap. If they throw backhand, their arm speed can somewhat compensate for lack of snap and they can still get an okay throw. If they were to throw forehand and try to use the same armspeed without any snap, it wouldn't do them much good. Of course, this is hard to visualize, because sidearm snap is much more natural than backhand.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Forehands rotate at about HALF the RPM of a backhand.

Don't believe me? Put an LED on the edge of one you discs and go throw at night.

The RPM is obvious.

 

[thatdirtykid]

i agree, that forehand clinic video (on youtube posted today in a dfferent topic) kinda bothered me in a couple parts, one of them being "use a more overstable disc because forehands result in more spin" no they just result in more off axis torque :lol:

 

[jamsisjams]

Lots of overstable drivers to choose from...... but I believe the poster is looking for a midrange

May be hard to find (check eBay) but the Ram is super overstable and I believe that's considered a mid.

I e-mailed the info contact for Innova and was told that the Ram (I think it was the Ram...it was a stable mid-range that is discontinued) is similar to a Spider, which I would consider stable to understable.

At any rate, I'm not saying that I can't forehand my wasp. I can. I love to. On a good day I can get over 300' with it. It just doesn't always handle the wind as well as I would like. Perhaps the problem is my technique but should I be working my technique around the disc or should I get a disc that fits my technique?

 

[jist313]

It is true forehand has less spin than backhand. More spin actually helps the disc hold its line true, instead of making it turn one way or another. Forehand shots get movement from more of a nuckleball effect as the disc is thrown with a lot of force and less spin. Bradley set out a great test, just use an LED at night to see which technique has more spin.

Now for the other discussion, there are all kinds of uber overstable mids you can try out. Wippet, Demon, Blaze, Drone, etc... you can also use super overstable high speed drivers. I say test out the discs you can get your hands on, see which grip you are more comfortable with. Try as many different shots that you can to see what the disc does in all kinds of situations. Where you can, try to make improvements on your form. Practice throwing as smooth and consistent as you can, instead of just adding more power.

[/quote]

 

[Scoot_er]

Lots of overstable drivers to choose from...... but I believe the poster is looking for a midrange

May be hard to find (check eBay) but the Ram is super overstable and I believe that's considered a mid.

I e-mailed the info contact for Innova and was told that the Ram (I think it was the Ram...it was a stable mid-range that is discontinued) is similar to a Spider, which I would consider stable to understable.

At any rate, I'm not saying that I can't forehand my wasp. I can. I love to. On a good day I can get over 300' with it. It just doesn't always handle the wind as well as I would like. Perhaps the problem is my technique but should I be working my technique around the disc or should I get a disc that fits my technique?

Whoever told you that was on CrAcK. The ram is like a Viper but more overstable. Kinda like a whippet with a concaved wing.

 

[jamsisjams]

Maybe I e-mailed the info guy about another mid-range. That particular e-mail wasn't exactly the highest on my pertinent info list at the time so there stands a good chance that I've misconstrued the disc in question.

 

[swel3041]

I dont know if id get hooked on a discontinued disc anyway. If it were me I would probobly try the demon, gateway plastic is sweet.

 

[roadkill1]

[I e-mailed the info contact for Innova and was told that the Ram (I think it was the Ram...it was a stable mid-range that is discontinued) is similar to a Spider, which I would consider stable to understable.

I'd say a dx spider is sort of unstable. A champion spider is high speed stable with a good bit of overstable fade at the end of fligh (at least mine is)t. Regardless I'm very surprised someone from Innova would liken a Ram to a Spider since a Ram is atleast twice as (over)stable as any spider. I don't think Innova currently offers any mids anywhere close to a Ram so he probably was just trying to sell you a disc by telling you the disc (that they don't have) was like a Spider.

 

[jiwaburst]

I e-mailed the info contact for Innova and was told that the Ram (I think it was the Ram...it was a stable mid-range that is discontinued) is similar to a Spider, which I would consider stable to understable.

Dollars to donuts it's the Raven which is similar to the spider. The raven is/was still on their website, the ram is long gone...

 

[discmonkey42]

Bradley set out a great test, just use an LED at night to see which technique has more spin.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, this does not work. When using an LED, you are subjected to an optical illusion created by the spin of the disc. It is the same illusion created when looking at a spoked rim on a car spin. Sometimes it looks like the rim is moving really slowly or even backward. When you are looking at the LED on the disc spin (or the dyed edges in the daytime), you are seeing this illusion. The disc is spinning much faster than you can count with your eye anyway. I only ever get a sense of how fast the disc actually spins when I have a disc land on ice and stand up and spin on its edge but leaning over to the side. Looks like a top dying. It's then that I realize just how fast the thing is spinning.

I don't know or care which method of throwing spins more, but I know you can't figure it out this way.

 

[Bruce1]

A disc turns over (acts "understable") because of the added lift on the left side (RHBH) due to that side having a higher airspeed than the right side.

how does that work?

When a disc spins clockwise (viewed from above), the left side of the disc is moving forward; the right side is moving backward. Relative to the motionless fluid it's travelling through, the "airspeed" of the left side is faster than the right. Therefore, because a disc is in many ways an airfoil (wing), more lift is generated on the left side, and the disc tilts to the right.

This PDF from the Ottawa Disc Golf Club is the best -- possibly the only -- explanation I've seen for all of this: http://www.odgc.ca/files/dg-flightphysics-mkIV.pdf

I used to believe this too, but the effect is negligible compared to the gyroscopic precession. For a very full explanation read the research here: http://www.discwing.com/research/aerodynamics.html

The Abstract:

The frisbee-like flying sports disc is a spin-stabilised axi-symmetric wing of quite remarkable design. The disc generates lift through forward velocity just like a conventional wing. From a backhand throw, spin is naturally given to the disc, which stabilises it in free-flight. This experimental investigation of a typical flying disc shape outlines wind-tunnel data including plots of aerodynamic loads verses angle of attack (AoA) which are compared to existing data in the literature, the effect of spin is also presented. The surface pressure distribution is presented as pressure profiles at the halfspan station and colour filled contour plots for both the upper and cavity surfaces. Surface and smoke wire flow visualisation techniques provide an explanation of flow structures which compare well with the pressure distributions. The asymmetries observed in the trailing vortices, for a spinning disc, allow an explanation of the aerodynamic generation of the rolling moment and side force. The free-flight of a flying disc is discussed based on the above.

 

[adamschneider]

I used to believe this too, but the effect is negligible compared to the gyroscopic precession. For a very full explanation read the research here: http://www.discwing.com/research/aerodynamics.html

So, what I gathered from that (very technical) article was that the precession is dependent almost entirely on the ratio of rotational to forward velocity (they call it "AdvR"); with a high spin-to-speed ratio, the disc actually wants to pitch downward, which translates to a rightward roll because gyroscopes are weird. If the rate of spin is less, the disc wants to pitch upward, which causes a leftward bank.

That must mean that toward the end of its flight, a disc is losing spin more rapidly than it's losing forward speed?

(Even with this more technical explanation, of course, it still means more spin = more understable-ish flight.)

 

[Bruce1]

I used to believe this too, but the effect is negligible compared to the gyroscopic precession. For a very full explanation read the research here: http://www.discwing.com/research/aerodynamics.html

So, what I gathered from that (very technical) article was that the precession is dependent almost entirely on the ratio of rotational to forward velocity (they call it "AdvR"); with a high spin-to-speed ratio, the disc actually wants to pitch downward, which translates to a rightward roll because gyroscopes are weird. If the rate of spin is less, the disc wants to pitch upward, which causes a leftward bank.

That must mean that toward the end of its flight, a disc is losing spin more rapidly than it's losing forward speed?

(Even with this more technical explanation, of course, it still means more spin = more understable-ish flight.)

That's about the gist of it, yea. Well done! The basic thing is that the older article you linked to points to precession for the 'fade', and lift variance for the 'turn', whereas in reality precession is responsible for both parts because, as you say, gyroscopes are weird :lol:

The upward pitch = left bank part is responsible for the flare effect you can see on some discs, or if you throw with too much nose up.

 

[black udder]

So... does all the tech-head information mean that in order to get a Wraith to follow it's intended path (an S type pattern) that you need to release the disc with both high speed and high spin? If you just have high speed and a low spin, it would tend to fly flat and fade or hyzer?

This is removing all other factors of the throw (i.e. poor form, etc.).

The same could be said of other discs like the Gazelle or Valkyrie, but perhaps since they are slower speed discs they need less spin to perform their true flight pattern?