Repository of Cool Images

[sidewinder22]

Elvis had a pretty good golf swing and guitar toss.

 

[timothy42b]

I now realize it's more complicated. I saw the Wiggins image with the spine apparently in line with plant leg, and I've seen the trail leg version from Weissman, Trebuchet, and to some extent Clint.

But I looked back through this thread, and Post #4 has more than 20 photos of spine in line with trail/counterbalance leg.

The Wiggins screen shot is at plant/end of backswing while the others are at end of followthrough. I guess I need to look at tilted spiral and riding the bull again.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Adding this from another thread for easy future reference since I didn't see it here:

 

[timothy42b]

It would really be nice if there were black lines in a grid on tee pads. Something like basketball court lines, scaled to the pad of course, but so you could really tell what direction they are setting up and throwing.

For all you who do form videos, hint. Or when indoors, use a tile floor, and set up along one of the lines.

 

[Brychanus]

Adding this from another thread for easy future reference since I didn't see it here:

I don't want to gum up Images with form chatter but just want to show a visual for a commonly missed concept that's more obvious in the extremes (and yes, people argue about this too, but go study elite javeliners). By the time any of these guys' X-step is touching the ground, they are already "falling" toward the earth and just carrying that momentum into the plant stride (or further accelerating with the drive step). So some of the effect is just what happens when you use your legs to walk or run, and some of it is actually "falling" form an airborne move thru the X-step into the plant in aggressive posture.



This is Zelezny, who still holds the distance world record:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't want to gum up Images with form chatter but just want to show a visual for a commonly missed concept that's more obvious in the extremes (and yes, people argue about this too, but go study elite javeliners). By the time any of these guys' X-step is touching the ground, they are already "falling" toward the earth and just carrying that momentum into the plant stride (or further accelerating with the drive step). So some of the effect is just what happens when you use your legs to walk or run, and some of it is actually "falling" form an airborne move thru the X-step into the plant in aggressive posture.

View attachment 336204

This is Zelezny, who still holds the distance world record:

This is why chose the crow hop when running vs walking up. It feels like it forces me to to commit to the forward momentum more than a regular X step which leaves open more possibility of keeping some weight back even when having forward speed.

 

[Brychanus]

See previously Simon Lizotte and Drew Gibson when asked to throw hyzer, "flat," or anhyzer.

In Gannon Buhr's form at long distances we also see:

Swinging upward nose down, another challenge to "flat" form theory [1 2], and whole-body posture controls swing plane & trajectory.

 

[RowingBoats]

See previously Simon Lizotte and Drew Gibson when asked to throw hyzer, "flat," or anhyzer.

In Gannon Buhr's form at long distances we also see:

Swinging upward nose down, another challenge to "flat" form theory [1 2], and whole-body posture controls swing plane & trajectory.

View attachment 337268

I find it interesting that it appears his Anhyzer angle severity decreases noticeably as power increases.

I can relate to it in two ways:

1.) I still cannot find a way to feel as powerful throwing at significant anhyzer angles, so as power ramps up, that angle is simply not available to me.
2.) I find that the mega flex shot shape that requires a large anhyzer angle to be more commonly useful with putters/mids in actual play.

Or is it that Im seeing things and that is not in fact a valid observation?

 

[disc-golf-neil]

What about this, not a problem if you know how to properly transfer the weight forward from here? Lot's of pros in this position usually only have elbow and down crossing the line but maybe it's also because he's throwing a somewhat high launch angle or skewed camera angle?

 

[Brychanus]

I find it interesting that it appears his Anhyzer angle severity decreases noticeably as power increases.

I can relate to it in two ways:

1.) I still cannot find a way to feel as powerful throwing at significant anhyzer angles, so as power ramps up, that angle is simply not available to me.
2.) I find that the mega flex shot shape that requires a large anhyzer angle to be more commonly useful with putters/mids in actual play.

Or is it that Im seeing things and that is not in fact a valid observation?

Yeah I noticed the same - I'm not sure this always happen in pros, but there does seem to be a pattern where their "true" release angle is more likely an actual anhyzer at maybe 80% or less distance. But once they get closer to full mashes, they're actually posturally swinging somewhat on hyzer, and either the wrist action or disc is just quickly going into some kind of hyzerflip with a pretty overstable disc that flexes back.

My personal guess is that the gravity advantage is often big enough at max power that throwing on hyzer-for-anhyzer might be a real thing even when people "feel" like it's an anhyzer. Like at my humble level I have this too - I can sort of deliberately crank over a true anhyzer and get distance (still somewhat less than my distance hyzerflips), but it feels ways more effortful than what Simon, Drew, and Buhr appear to do. Fighting gravity.

I also thought it was super cool that both Simon and Drew have bigger hyzer angles on their "anhyzer" releases than Buhr. They both have really good levers, but Buhr is taller with next-level levers etc, so I wonder if that's why he has less "hyzer-on-anhyzer." Maybe a pattern we'll see with the long guys on tour, and a reason that smaller/shorter/heavier/short levered people could benefit from more "hyzer-on-anhyzer." Thoughts? @sidewinder22 ?

What about this, not a problem if you know how to properly transfer the weight forward from here? Lot's of pros in this position usually only have elbow and down crossing the line but maybe it's also because he's throwing a somewhat high launch angle.

View attachment 337358View attachment 337359

Yeah, I think launch/trajectory angle also modifies how most people appear posturally in transition and I think that Barela shot was pretty low iirc. However, I do think there are a couple differences in how Buhr loads the rear side. This is one of my favorite balance puzzles in disc golf and I might understand it now.

Both Buhr and Barela are in balance, but Buhr's balance and posture in transition through and off the X-step works more like this move here, just that his posture is closed to the target and he keeps reaching back in transition for his backhand. This move might at first look like a rising "jump" to you, but if you do it in proper balance it has the opposite feeling of dropping into the plant. It's super cool. Don't think about it - try it and see if you get it. Very cool.

I think Barela's move is also in balance, but even when he's throwing higher I think he loads and gets off the rear side posturally closer to Sidewinder's Ride the Bull Drill. I find this one easier to do probably due to my body type and rear leg/gait issue, so probably worth playing with both for most people.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I was curious about the angulation of the arm from ~wrist to elbow entering the hit and thought some would find this interesting.

If you go back through the OT montages and look at lower power shots, the Anhyzer angle looks much more like Brinster's here. But when Simon and Drew go for max power they're basically swinging on shallow hyzers. The disc has slightly less angulation than that entering the hit, but they're relying on gravity entering the hit and allowing the disc to go quickly into a slight turnover for "Anhyzer."

Simon's anhyzer here looks like a different grip alignment compared to his others.

 

[Brychanus]

Simon's anhyzer here looks like a different grip alignment compared to his others.

Yes, I think that's an important variable too. It's interesting how it differs somewhat from Gibsons even though they are throwing a similar "anhyzer-on-hyzer" angle posturally. Hmmm.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

I disagree with that concept - sent Trebuchet a few DMs about it. A static front leg and dropping/rotating the trailside does absolutely nothing but pull you backwards off balance. Try it swinging something heavy like a kettlebell.

You need a point on the ground to establish a stable axis of rotation. We rotate around our center of mass/gravity, not the spine. It can get weird talking about some math concepts in the throw, we are not rigid bodies.

On the point of 'we are not riged bodies'... totally agree.

I think the discrepancy here is that we are both right. There is an axis of rotation how I'm seeing it where the spine and the rear leg are on the axis first. That starts to fade away very close to the hit (most pro's release the front toe just before the hit) and the front leg starts to rotate. Then there is a new axis of rotation that does include the front leg and does not include the rear leg. In my coaching I find it most useful to talk about how we line things up for the hit, so I worry about getting into that more than I tend to worry about the follow though.

The way I think about Axis, you are totally right it requires a point on the ground. But that point doesnt have to be the axis. If I wind some string around a stick, tie one end of the string to a pole, then drop the stick. the stick will spin as it rolls down the poll. The axis of rotation is the stick spinning as it yo-yo's down the pole. The pole is not the axis of rotation. Is that helpful to understand how I'm thinking?

 

[Brychanus]

Blue line is approximate player balance in transition and then the plant step from head to toe. Curved arrows are the principal direction of the shift in the axis in the north-south direction. This is a very common fundamental balance error. Liked how @sidewinder22 summarizes the opposite of Tipping Over as "Shifting Underneath" so I'm sticking with it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Blue line is approximate player balance in transition and then the plant step from head to toe. Curved arrows are the principal direction of the shift in the axis in the north-south direction. This is a very common fundamental balance error. Liked how @sidewinder22 summarizes the opposite of Tipping Over as "Shifting Underneath" so I'm sticking with it.

View attachment 337932

So on the left they are tipping over their brace without their balance being over their brace? Or it's just too early in the sequence to see that?

Edit: I was thinking their balance is indicated as on the back leg and so the plant is de-weighted which makes it seem like they can't tip over it but I can see how the angle of the balance line suggests a tip forward is about to happen, but at the same time it looks like a position where a strong brace could stop a tipping over.

 

[Countchunkula]

I was curious about the angulation of the arm from ~wrist to elbow entering the hit and thought some would find this interesting.

If you go back through the OT montages and look at lower power shots, the Anhyzer angle looks much more like Brinster's here. But when Simon and Drew go for max power they're basically swinging on shallow hyzers. The disc has slightly less angulation than that entering the hit, but they're relying on gravity entering the hit and allowing the disc to go quickly into a slight turnover for "Anhyzer."

Look at how the angle of the disc vs the forearm changes from left to right.

When my I don't cock my wrist down, I end up throwing noob hyzers. It appears both throw anhyzers that way.

Is what I think I'm seeing just that the anhyzer frames were taken a fraction of a second earlier in the throw? Are they both cranking the nose down just before it rips out?

Or since they have so much power, they intentionally throw flippy (for them) discs nose up?

Or is that more due to different setup angle to throw hyzer vs anhyzer? You can clearly see more of each player's back in the leftmost frames. Not sure if that's timing or orientation.

Damn that's a lot of questions.

 

[Brychanus]

Look at how the angle of the disc vs the forearm changes from left to right.

When my I don't cock my wrist down, I end up throwing noob hyzers. It appears both throw anhyzers that way.

Is what I think I'm seeing just that the anhyzer frames were taken a fraction of a second earlier in the throw? Are they both cranking the nose down just before it rips out?

Or since they have so much power, they intentionally throw flippy (for them) discs nose up?

Or is that more due to different setup angle to throw hyzer vs anhyzer? You can clearly see more of each player's back in the leftmost frames. Not sure if that's timing or orientation.

Damn that's a lot of questions.

Yeah, I was trying to get the frame closest to when the nose is "smashing through" the release point, it was a little dodgy but I could get close.

Not sure I can say all of this right or if I am conceptually 100% correct.

1. I currently suppose that there's a combination of some degrees of freedom in at least the grip and/or orientation of disc in hand probably resulting in slightly different pressure and exact arm patterns @disc-golf-neil

2. To me, it looks like the discs are coming out slightly hyzer (plane of play), on a high line of attack/line of play, and nose down. As the disc is coming into the release, what they have in common is that the nose is coming down and around as part of that late supinating/pressure/weird phase I still only partly have my head around. I think/guess if you spoil any part of that action it wouldn't fly how theirs does.

3. Seeing the back/posture: it's interesting that all three of them are clearly using a full body tilt adjustment (here I'm talking about balance again, which is not always easy to see) to throw anhyzer, which I think tilts them (1) more deep North-South, with head ending up more South and (2) more deep West-East, where the head tends to be more East (balance-wise) when they land. So the arm is making "contact" or release is more out "ahead and in front" of them in some camera angles and especially the rear, but that mostly occurs as a function of the changing balanced tilt (plus probably these other variables, I would guess). I've always been interested that Gibson maintains more of the "Battering Ram" posture than Simon with the leading shoulder remaining somewhat lower than his rear shoulder, even when he throws the "anhyzer" mash.

4. If you think of a golf swing or baseball home run or submarine pitcher, you can still get a gravity effect swinging on planes like this because you are carrying through the momentum with balanced tilt in the whole body. I started to realize this when I was doing tons of weighted club swings in multiple directions. I think that's part of why I think I "see" the "hyzer on hyzer" effect in posture in the rear frame. When you look at it from the side of the tee, you can still see that the arm is like a "dingle arm" pulling/swinging out from the balanced tilt- shoulder higher than elbow higher than hand. So to simplify all that I think they're all using some version of a gravity-boosted dingle arm, but their full body tilt (and other variables) are committing the disc "swinging upward nose down."

Also, the more I watch Gannon, the more I think his move is slightly more rotational (like Klein) than Simon or Gibson. I guess it makes sense that if you're very long in the limbs and narrow, a slightly more rotational form also can get you a significant whip effect.

Phew!

Repository of cool images image:

 

[Brychanus]

So on the left they are tipping over their brace without their balance being over their brace? Or it's just too early in the sequence to see that?

Edit: I was thinking their balance is indicated as on the back leg and so the plant is de-weighted which makes it seem like they can't tip over it but I can see how the angle of the balance line suggests a tip forward is about to happen, but at the same time it looks like a position where a strong brace could stop a tipping over.

This is a good question as usual. There's a clue in the leading leg:

I'd have to see how often I can actually predict it, but in the still frame of the player on the left, notice that his leading leg still has the ankle ahead of the knee, which is ahead of the hip (marked it up below) This is part of how the "power stance" works and hides form problems from people. The player can be tipping over from the X-step in opposite/power stance balance, but then still block/catch themselves as they land in the plant. This player is a weightlifter with strong legs so they make it work and throw the disc, but it's probably much harder on the joints in the long run, and is definitely less efficient than balanced tilt and "shifting underneath", which lets the entire weight of the body help assist the move. I do think there is a continuum of how much players rely on tilt in their move, but at the highest level it's probably all much closer to "shifting underneath" than not, which is why they can get such a balanced and fast move coming up the chain when they plant.



For a little while I've had the hypothesis that some people who end up throwing very well and far do start in poor balanced tilt/more power stanced, but getting their plant leg out and strong actually helps "train" it for the ground force reaction to an extent, which might help explain why some players even at high levels have brace and balanced processes that seem to be more "leg leading" than "CoM leading." But in general the balance from head to foot becomes much more like Tamm for everyone. Not entirely sure yet or how to test that other than observe wireframes until we get better models.

 

[Polecat132]

Ryan Sheldon at/near release

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Ryan Sheldon at/near release

This is an interesting example because it's a weird like dynamic balance that is out of balance as soon as the momentum is mostly absorbed into the brace, lol. A lot of times on the big forehands he is hopping over to his right to catch himself from tilting and falling over to the right. I remember seeing the same rightward hop on an Emmerson Keith forehand at waco 2024