right pec question

[terazen]

Does the disc keep close to your right pec more from using your biceps or should it just happen from pulling your elbow through and opening the hips? Also is the tricep used to chop the arm out or is that supposed to happen more on it's own?

 

[black udder]

When you throw, you close your elbow and bring the disc in towards the crook in your elbow. The momentum you bring into that motion will bend your wrist a little to tuck the disc into the right pec position. There is little bicep involvement. Opening the hips has nothing to do with getting the disc to the right pec position, also, it's not so much pulling your elbow through as much as guiding the disc into the right pec and pulling out from that position.

If you rotate too fast or try and pull to fast, it's easy to let your arm slip away from your chest and the disc never make it into the right pec area. To prevent that, use a slower motion x-step and slowly increase your speed up to when the disc is in the right pec position, then explode out of it.

 

[garublador1]

My understanding is that the bicep and tricep are used to guide your arm through the correct positions at the correct times but do not generate power.

 

[Firios]

What helped me to get this idea in my head was to stand still with my arms all loosey-goosey. Twist your hips back like you would in a drive, and you will notice that your throwing arm naturally goes somewhat close to the natural pull back location, then if you quickly open your hips, your arm is pretty much going straight for that right pec, with NO arm involvement at all.

 

[ReDisculous]

I keep coming back to this diagram, but this has helped me a great deal. If you look at the diagram, the shoulders clearly do not move as the disc goes across your chest. You use the momentum from going to position in frame 1, to the position in frame 2 to send the disc across your chest using very little arm muscle. The shoulders turn, pulling your arm, and then stop, but the arm/disc keeps going, until you get into position to throw.

Blake has stated that there are two rotations, and if I understand correctly, the first one gives you the momentum to get into position, and the second one helps you to finish the throw.

Of course, I could be wrong. I still don't throw very far, but I throw farther than I did before I started practicing this, with less effort than I was using before.

during the first rotation, make sure the upper arm moves WITH the shoulder. it sounds like you are letting it lag behind which causes a narrowing of the angle between the shoulder and upper arm. you want to guide the disc with your arm. the arm shouldn't be tense, but it shouldn't be absolutely limp either.

my elite art skills diagramming the 3 stages of the throw across 4 panels.

the way you are throwing skips panel #3.

[quote what you are describing is exactly why step 3 usually gets bypassed by players. the hips don't go from closed to open, they go from closed to neutral to open.

1 to 2 = your hips go from closed to "neutral". if your right foot sets down ~90 degrees away from the target, your upper body is in alignment when the right shoulder is pointing at the target.

2 to 3 = the hips don't really do anything here.

3 to 4 = the hip opens.

your focus should be on driving your body forwards with your legs. the pivot should take care of itself, assuming your timing is working.

Might as well put pictures and words together. Thanks Blake.[/quote]

 

[rehder]

the diagram shows two things that most players arent doing enough.
1) get the disc very close in to your body (the closer you get it, the less energy you need to expend)
2) that there is a point where the movement of the upper arm, does not follow movement of shoulders

 

[JHern]

I've not mastered this yet, by any means, but the mechanics makes sense...there is a load, then an unload cycle. The loading occurs as you pull the disc into the right pec, and is the part that resembles pulling a lawn mower motor rip cord. You don't have to pull hard, but you do have to get enough momentum on the disc early in the pull to wag your wrist back in the process of pulling the disc into the right pec area. As the disc comes into the right pec one actually slows down. Only when the disc is tucked in, then the hips are exploding and the shoulders whip around which slings your forearm and wrist forward and propels the disc through the unload cycle (provided you can hold onto it).

I have felt this from time to time. It usually results in a big (like 60 ft+) increase in my usual distance and a disc that turns quite a bit more (sometimes burning early if under-stable plastic).

 

[black udder]

Only when the disc is tucked in, then the hips are exploding and the shoulders whip around which slings your forearm and wrist forward and propels the disc through the unload cycle (provided you can hold onto it).

When you're at step 3, you pull hard and fast. After the disc is away from your chest, then the shoulders turn. What starts the forearm coming out is the stopping of the elbow. Diagram 3 shows where the elbow stops to get your maximum throw potential.

All the lower body power and rotational power you generate is expended at that moment (diagram 3) when you pull. After diagram 3, it's all a matter of finish and follow through.

 

[ReDisculous]

I always thought that the hips/shoulders were supposed to pull your arm through the finish?

 

[JHern]

When you're at step 3, you pull hard and fast. After the disc is away from your chest, then the shoulders turn. What starts the forearm coming out is the stopping of the elbow. Diagram 3 shows where the elbow stops to get your maximum throw potential.

I always thought about this "elbow stop" as basically the end part of pulling the disc into the right pec. But you're defining it as a separate motion. Maybe this is the source of my misunderstanding. My thinking was along the lines that the shoulders whip the forearm out after the disc has stopped moving into the right pec area. I.e., that the pulling in to the right pec (elbow stoppage being the end of that motion) only serves to coil up the wrist, storing elastic energy in the tendons to be released upon elbow extension.

Or maybe this is semantics?

 

[ReDisculous]

As I understand it, stopping the elbow does everything you said it does, and everything BU said as well. Hopefully we can get some more comments on this.

 

[gretagun]

I too have struggled to understand the "stopping of the elbow". Is it possible that this is the same thing MB refers to as "punching towards the target"? When I focus on puching towards the target, which I rarely remember to do, it does feel like my forearm to elbow movement stops, and the forearm swings out hard.

 

[JHern]

I'm still messing with this, and now I think this has been the only thing keeping me from developing legit snap.

"Elbow stop" itself is meaningless unless you say what exactly the elbow stops relative to, and I'm pretty sure I've never heard an adequate description of this. Elbow stops relative to the ground? Stops relative to the direction of the throw? Stops relative to the shoulders in the moving/rotating frame of reference of the shoulders? I don't know, but it is probably one of these, or a combination of them. One thing I'm certain of is that you aren't supposed to stop the arm from unbending at the elbow.

If it is "stops relative to the shoulders in the moving/rotating frame of reference of the shoulders," then what it implies is that the upper arm essentially becomes a rigid extension of the shoulders, which could be accomplished by tightening of the upper arm muscles and shoulder muscles so as to not allow any motion of the upper arm about the shoulder joint. Kind of like fusing the shoulder and upper arm so that the arm can no longer move around out of the shoulder joint. The shoulder joint becomes frozen.

What would this accomplish? I suppose it would create a lever/moment that applies the momentum of the torso and strong force of the core/shoulders directly to the elbow as a fulcrum. Then the rapid unbending of the arm at the elbow that occurs is not so much a punch, nor does it need much force from the arm muscles to accomplish (i.e., the triceps are not doing the majority of work, as in a conventional chop-like punch); the arm would mostly unbend at the elbow because the forearm (with the disc at the end in the hand) is essentially whipped forward by momentum and the hit occurs when the elbow is near maximum extension, when the unbending of the elbow needs to stop before you break your arm backwards at the elbow. As the disc re

Anyways, I'm just speculating here, because I don't have this down yet myself. Any experts care to comment further?

I do promise that when I "get it" I will write up a very detailed explanation myself, to add to all the plethora of confusing explanations.

 

[ReDisculous]

I'm pretty sure it really means you stop the upper arm. It's a kinetic chain. The path your elbow takes for you to assume the right pec position is an arc. If you stop it once it gets forward, the momentum gets passed from the upper arm to the lower arm, which will then swing out on it's own with little actual effort from your arm. Getting the disc to the right pec is done the same way. If you stop your shoulders once they have rotated 90 degrees, the elbow will arc around to the right pec position without you having to put it there.

Of course the elbow does not stay stationary for long or you would wreck you arm. I've been trying to see it in peoples throws with little success.

On a side note if you think about the angles of your arm, if your elbow is arcing around while you are trying to unbend your elbow, the arcing motion of the elbow will actually want to close the angle of the elbow instead of open it and you will be fighting your own body and robbing yourself of power. Either that or throwing way off to the right.

 

[black udder]

when you throw, you pull your elbow across your chest and extend it.

I believe that the most powerful throws are when the elbow is extending while your right shoulder is still pointed towards the target.

That said, your elbow punches out towards the target (right pec position) and then *stops*. At that point, the elbow is forced open and as the elbow opens up, you pull as hard/fast as you can. As you pull, the chest comes around to prevent you from hyper extending the elbow.

Some folks allow the elbow to go past the point of the target, which reduces the amount of power in the elbow opening.

 

[JHern]

when you throw, you pull your elbow across your chest and extend it.

I believe that the most powerful throws are when the elbow is extending while your right shoulder is still pointed towards the target.

That said, your elbow punches out towards the target (right pec position) and then *stops*. At that point, the elbow is forced open and as the elbow opens up, you pull as hard/fast as you can. As you pull, the chest comes around to prevent you from hyper extending the elbow.

Some folks allow the elbow to go past the point of the target, which reduces the amount of power in the elbow opening.

Still didn't answer my question: *stops* relative to what?

 

[black udder]

when you throw, you pull your elbow across your chest and extend it.

I believe that the most powerful throws are when the elbow is extending while your right shoulder is still pointed towards the target.

That said, your elbow punches out towards the target (right pec position) and then *stops*. At that point, the elbow is forced open and as the elbow opens up, you pull as hard/fast as you can. As you pull, the chest comes around to prevent you from hyper extending the elbow.

Some folks allow the elbow to go past the point of the target, which reduces the amount of power in the elbow opening.

Still didn't answer my question: *stops* relative to what?

stops moving?

Stand with your shoulder pointed toward the target, point your elbow at it. That's where your elbow stops moving, regardless of how you throw, where you're throwing. The angle would change for hyzer/anhyzer, etc. but your elbow stops moving in the direction it was going when it's pointing at the target and then the elbow unhinges.

 

[JHern]

when you throw, you pull your elbow across your chest and extend it.

I believe that the most powerful throws are when the elbow is extending while your right shoulder is still pointed towards the target.

That said, your elbow punches out towards the target (right pec position) and then *stops*. At that point, the elbow is forced open and as the elbow opens up, you pull as hard/fast as you can. As you pull, the chest comes around to prevent you from hyper extending the elbow.

Some folks allow the elbow to go past the point of the target, which reduces the amount of power in the elbow opening.

Still didn't answer my question: *stops* relative to what?

stops moving?

Stand with your shoulder pointed toward the target, point your elbow at it. That's where your elbow stops moving, regardless of how you throw, where you're throwing. The angle would change for hyzer/anhyzer, etc. but your elbow stops moving in the direction it was going when it's pointing at the target and then the elbow unhinges.

So, it stops in mid-air, frozen in space and time? As if there were an elbow-high post rigidly fixed into the ground, and when your elbow gets to the top of this post (after the pull into the right pec) it is like strapping the elbow down to that post in the ground, and then the elbow doesn't move at all after (or at least until near full extension)? The body, shoulders, everything else can continue to rotate and shift, but the elbow stays fixed on top of that post in the ground? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CHAS.1]

Maybe it's the point where the elbow is closest to the target even the motion continues?

 

[ReDisculous]

So, it stops in mid-air, frozen in space and time? As if there were an elbow-high post rigidly fixed into the ground, and when your elbow gets to the top of this post (after the pull into the right pec) it is like strapping the elbow down to that post in the ground, and then the elbow doesn't move at all after (or at least until near full extension)? The body, shoulders, everything else can continue to rotate and shift, but the elbow stays fixed on top of that post in the ground? That doesn't make sense to me.

You actually did a great job of describing it, much better than I did. Here is someone else describing it who's opinion you may value a bit more:

its easier to get timing down with a short reach, once you get timing down perfectly than it is ok to extend your reachback.

think of your elbow as a ball, with a stick attached to it; when your elbow stops (when it cannot be moved forward any more) that is where your forearm moves around your elbow and the rip is just before you fully extend.

Edit (link to MB's quote) http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13797&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a