Right pec vs left pec power pocket

[semisensei]

Question regarding the power pocket: where is it? Some pros (like Ezra A) describe the "power box," where the angle between shoulders and upper arm are 90 degrees, and the elbow is also at 90 degrees, creating a little square box with the disc over the left pec before releasing into the snap/hit.
There also seems to be a line of thought (HUB, Dan Beto) that describes the disc in the right pec at the power pocket, which would make for a more obtuse angle at the shoulder and a more acute angle at the elbow.
So which is "correct" in terms of power potential? Or does it matter as long as all things timing remain the same?
And why?

 

[sidewinder22]

I say it's your Center, but is also dynamic. I prefer to think about a Wide-Narrow-Wide motion pattern creating an inertial confrontation between your CoG and the disc's CoG and leveraging a sling shot effect.

 

[Discbee]

That is an interesting point and something that confused me as I first started reading some stuff about it. It seems that most of what I read and heard online was that it should be closer to your right pec (for RHBH) but I always seem to be more comfortable when it is the left pec. I made a conscious effort to change it for a bit but it seems to be better for me when the disc came in close to my left pec so that is where it is now when I am throwing. I concentrate more on keeping the angle between my shoulder and upper arm right around 90 degree and that usually puts the disc near my left pec so that seems to work for me.

 

[twistedraven]

I don't even think it should be at your pecs. You're strongest when pulling through your diaphragm.

 

[joohn]

Right pec/center chest=hand stays on outside of disc longer/later, disc might be slightly closer to center of gravity at this position compared to left pec. Do this drill with a hand weight and feel where the weight feels the lightest/weightless - https://youtu.be/e-eYtrkSz14?t=21. It doesn't make much of a difference right/left/center chest, as long as it is tucked in. Compare that feeling to how heavy it feels to swing the arc out wide. Swing in a big arc and feel the weight of the disc/hammer/weight pull you around like a ball on a string.

Left pec=potentially more compression on lats/shoulder muscles, loading and unloading like a spring. aka why it looks like Paul McBeth is rounding.

However, what feels like or starts at the right pec might be closer to left pec during the swing, and trying to maintain 90deg/left pec might lead to rounding due to compression.
But it's important to understand how this relates to the swing arc from the power pocket to ejection.
I bookmarked some threads on this topic a while ago...

Center of gravity is just above your navel or belly button. If you squat into athletic stance, so your spine is tilted forward toward knees, your center of gravity is now outside your body, so your head is above it and knees below and navel to the side of it. That is the real power pocket.

I setup with the disc right at my center of gravity and grip on the opposite side of the disc from my CoG. This puts the elbow about nip high and forward of the shoulder and upper arm angle much wider than 90 degrees.

...........

From "Driving the elbow vs keeping the shoulder closed" relevant discussion pages 1-5:

Yeah I think it kind of is the left pec...but since feel perception/goals vs. actual results differs...

If you aim for left pec then lots of people will probably collapse the arm early and go to left upper arm. If you think right pec, and everything gets kind of collapsed slightly from the momentum you'll be at left pec. Everyone is a bit different with what the feel is perceived as and what clicks though.

Or you can just feel what that outer arc/hit point is, keep the angles maintained as much as possible during the backswing and forward swing, and then see on video after where it looked like the disc was near your chest. I think this is the best option.

I'd say shoulder maintained is goal so you can get that outer arc in front of you without opening the shoulder or elbow early. Try the hammer swinging and "battering ram" swinging on SW's youtube channel, his drills are on seabas22 account. Once you feel that outer arc and how far in front of your body it is, it's more obvious to not allow yourself to collapse. Also the slower your movement forward the less the disc/hand gets pulled in to the chest. If you watch McBeth on easy upshots for example, his arm looks really wide, and on high power shots his hand gets way in to the power pocket and his elbow angle looks pretty sharp. I bet it feels the same to him, just the momentum pulling the disc/hand/forearm back is increased with more power and speed.

Lag. Lag bends the arm. The arm is not being bent.

If you just let the arm/disc do its own thing, it will work out. There's no "pulling" involved really. What I mean is, treat the arm/disc as just a big, loose whip. The rotation of your hips/torso is all the power you need. Anything you "try" to do with the arm just gets in the way of the slinging motion.

From Bradley Walker's Power Pocket and Arc

Love this video. Really clarifies what you were trying to say to us in the other thread. Sometimes a visual really bridges the gap of understanding (which is why I love the way SW22 does things).

As for the elbowing down the door thing: I think it's advice people give in order to force elbow extension. However, it ends with what BW said (SHOULDER OPEN, ELBOW RIGHT, ARM RIGHT, NOSE UP HYZER...)

It really helps me if I think about it like this instead: Get into an athletic position and get the disc in the power pocket with your elbow forward like it should be. Now, without moving your shoulder joint, extend your lower arm (say hello to the hit, approx. 45 degrees left of target like BW says). Now rotate your upper body without moving your arm until you're in a wide reachback position. Say hello to your backswing. Now rotate as if you were throwing your disc slowly, but keep your shoulder joint static (never closes, even a little bit) and allow the elbow to be somewhat loose. You should feel the rotation force your elbow closed a little bit and then SNAP back to straight right to the hit point you addressed before.

THAT is how you feel snap. Keep speeding it up and build it into your throw.

SW22 helped me come to this epiphany with his most recent hammer throw/stop hugging yourself videos.

"Shoulder Timing":

.........Question: is it natural/easy for most of you good throwers to keep a 90+ deg. shoulder/upper arm angle? I find it very hard to keep that angle and not have an overall stiff arm (no wrist bounce, little inertial collapse of the disc into the pocket). Any tips on maintaining 90, but keeping elbow/wrist floppy?

Yes it's easy once you get it. The angle can vary, the feeling is more important. Loose but pulled taut. I think what most often happens with Ams is they try to spin the hips and shoulders too rotationally and create slack, instead of shifting deeper and swinging forward more linear.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138538

 

[semisensei]

The diagram of the power pocket and the body's center of gravity is awesome. I can feel how bringing the disc forward, into the diaphragm creates a heavier sensation, as opposed to the left pec area. Thanks for sharing your compiles research into the power pocket! Some nuggets there for sure.
I now have a related question about timing the power pocket with the plant/brace: is it all about timing the brace to maximize that HEAVY feeling at center chest/diaphragm? As in, exaggerating the "inertial confrontation" between the disc and body? As in, stride ends in the plant at the peak of the reach back, weight/momentum moves into the brace as disc draws to center chest (HEAVY), then brace leg pumps (to maintain/increase heavy feel) through the arm extension into the hit/release?

 

[sidewinder22]

Drew talking about pulling thru his center or hot pocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyhekGmjxjQ#t=8m

This is what I'm saying about it being dynamic to the arm slot.