Running and physical fitness

[hugheshilton]

I live in Oregon where it rains most days during the winter. The general bad weather means that I don't get out as often in late fall/winter/early spring. Typically in previous years I have noticed a drop in my driving distance when I start playing more frequently in late spring/early summer. While I might be hitting 400+ in a field at the end of summer, the next spring I'm struggling to get past 350 again.

Last year I started running regularly to stay in shape, which I've never done much of before (biking yes but not running). I ran faithfully through the winter. I'm currently running faster and further than I ever have before in my life, and I've noticed a huge improvement in my driving abilities. I was hitting 400 in a field pretty much as soon as I started field practice this summer. Currently I'm hitting 420+ in the field and right around 400 on the course. I haven't changed anything about how I'm driving and I'm putting in less field practice than I did last summer, so I'm pretty much attributing it to my running and increased physical fitness level. It's also nice not to feel tired after a round on a big demanding course like Milo McIver or Blue Lake.

Anyway, all that is to say that if you want to improve your driving distance and you feel you have decent technique, maybe you should look into doing some running and improve your general physical fitness level. It's definitely paid off for me.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Most regular physical training will improve one's game, albeit not always in a directly attributable manner, like you claim. I don't doubt your results, however.

In my experience, it worked generally like this (as I'm certain it does for many others):
Season begins - arm strength highest/arm skill lowest
Season ends - arm strength lowest/arm skill highest

This rubric describes the process that occurred for me each season, and is useful, barring injury, to 'predict where one will be', smooth one's performance curve over the entire season, or to time one's peak for a specific event. 'Serious' athletes (with good trainers), like baseball pitchers, use this mental map to integrate their cross-training with their current 'on the mound' load, which helps them avoid some injuries and adjust their performance expectations.

If you really wish to improve in disc golf, especially the power aspects, try substituting swimming workouts instead of running. If nothing else, I guarantee you'll last much longer as a golfer...

 

[Horsman]

Now I have noticed a much different effect in changing my fitness and health has made on my disc golf game.

Been doing Crossfit for about 2 years now along with going down many rabbit holes of diet to boost my performance.
Strength numbers and overall fitness have gone way up but my max distance is now only about 450' instead of 500'.
Im playing the least I every have in the last decade yet my rating is the highest it has ever been.
I attribute my drop in distance to not getting out on the course as much any more and my high rating to correctly being able to use diet to fuel my performance before during and after rounds, as well as being able to meditate and have fun during rounds.

 

[hugheshilton]

I would imagine that what you do in terms of physical fitness training makes a big difference (it certainly does in other sports). Just getting in shape doing anything is going to help in terms of endurance on the course, but not necessarily in terms of driving distance. When I run, I tend to do a lot or sprinting, interval training, etc. which should improve the fast twitch muscle fibers that you need for acceleration on the tee pad. Back when I did a lot of road biking, I didn't notice any correlation between how good of biking shape I was in and how far I was throwing. While I'm sure that swimming would improve your overall fitness level, I doubt it would make you throw further (I could be totally wrong there since I'm not expert and I haven't tried it).

With sports that have big money in them, there is so much research put into the exact workouts that benefit each part of an athlete's performance in the sport. You can find workouts that are pretty much proven to make you hit a baseball further. Unfortunately there's not enough money in disc golf for us to have that sort of research so we have to do a lot more guessing.

 

[ToddL]

Being in shape never hurt anyone at anything. Being in shape is always better than being out of shape.

It might not magically push you to having a 500' drive, but it will help in a lot of other ways.
Are you the first player to putt after climbing up a steep hill? Not huffing and puffing while putting improves your accuracy.
Are you getting tired halfway through round 4 of a weekend tournament on a hard course? Having strong legs will help this.
Can you drive 350' in round 1 but start to lose distance by round 4? Having strong back/tricep muscles will help sustain your distance all weekend.
And the one that has reared its ugly head for me plenty of times in my life: When you have an uphill putt at the end of a hard round or hard weekend, are your putts falling short and not getting over the rim of the basket? Strong legs (running, squats, whatever) will cure this in short order.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

I would imagine that what you do in terms of physical fitness training makes a big difference (it certainly does in other sports). Just getting in shape doing anything is going to help in terms of endurance on the course, but not necessarily in terms of driving distance. When I run, I tend to do a lot or sprinting, interval training, etc. which should improve the fast twitch muscle fibers that you need for acceleration on the tee pad. Back when I did a lot of road biking, I didn't notice any correlation between how good of biking shape I was in and how far I was throwing. While I'm sure that swimming would improve your overall fitness level, I doubt it would make you throw further (I could be totally wrong there since I'm not expert and I haven't tried it).

With sports that have big money in them, there is so much research put into the exact workouts that benefit each part of an athlete's performance in the sport. You can find workouts that are pretty much proven to make you hit a baseball further. Unfortunately there's not enough money in disc golf for us to have that sort of research so we have to do a lot more guessing.

If the intent of this response was to poke holes in the ideas I've presented, I understand, but disagree. Blind guessing is unlikely to prove correct. Educated guessing, on the other hand, will likely get you close to the mark despite budgetary and expertise limitations. Reading a single book on the general concepts of physical fitness is more valuable than a thousand blind guesses...

Most average people looking to build a cross training routine specifically for disc golf will look for established training routines from analogous sports. Or, they look for exercises which are likely to have a direct impact in body areas/uses that are needed for disc golf excellence (We speak only about physical training here. Psychological training and 'work-outs' are much more critical in general for the game of golf, despite the fact they are both deeply interrelated and vital, imo). For example, when swimming the crawl stroke and/or elementary backstroke what muscle groups are being worked and how? What muscles are used and how for the primary disc golf throws, the backhand and forehand? How much time is required to get an equivalent work-out when swimming as opposed to running? (the answer to this one is one-third to one-half) How much wear and stress is put on the body for each work-out, assuming the aerobic benefits for each are equivalent?

My anecdotal experience with swimming is as follows: In the late 80's, I decided to swim 3X/week using a variety of strokes for 60 min/session. It was my desire to become the longest thrower possible. At the end of about 4 months, I was easily able to throw 400'+ with DX aviars during a time when the fastest average discs were about a 5 or 6 speed (pre-speed ratings). I struggled to throw 350'+ consistently previously using the 'faster' discs (viper, barracuda...). Like you, I attribute this improvement more or less directly to my training, and less so to improved technique or equipment (training was the primary variable), but I was also entering the 'prime' of my athletic capability. Leg strength and speed were never an issue for me, personally, but both are improved via swimming with little impact on the body.

It doesn't matter if you believe me, because you're on your own trip. My suggestion is merely that, but it's also backed by decades of experience and sound reasoning. Sadly, in my experience, very few people are ever convinced by reason and logic alone....

 

[Mocheez]

Do you have any shoulder issues? I read somewhere that swimming is rough on the shoulders.

 

[Jaysauls]

At age 54, I have found that hitting the gym and running/walking has kept me at the top of my game. I don't look like a weight lifter or gym-rat, but by working my core, I've been able to keep up with the 'young guns' on all but the biggest courses. And at tournament time, is my conditioning that has kept me in the hunt as the holes wind down.

 

[hugheshilton]

If the intent of this response was to poke holes in the ideas I've presented, I understand, but disagree. Blind guessing is unlikely to prove correct. Educated guessing, on the other hand, will likely get you close to the mark despite budgetary and expertise limitations. Reading a single book on the general concepts of physical fitness is more valuable than a thousand blind guesses...

Most average people looking to build a cross training routine specifically for disc golf will look for established training routines from analogous sports. Or, they look for exercises which are likely to have a direct impact in body areas/uses that are needed for disc golf excellence (We speak only about physical training here. Psychological training and 'work-outs' are much more critical in general for the game of golf, despite the fact they are both deeply interrelated and vital, imo). For example, when swimming the crawl stroke and/or elementary backstroke what muscle groups are being worked and how? What muscles are used and how for the primary disc golf throws, the backhand and forehand? How much time is required to get an equivalent work-out when swimming as opposed to running? (the answer to this one is one-third to one-half) How much wear and stress is put on the body for each work-out, assuming the aerobic benefits for each are equivalent?

My anecdotal experience with swimming is as follows: In the late 80's, I decided to swim 3X/week using a variety of strokes for 60 min/session. It was my desire to become the longest thrower possible. At the end of about 4 months, I was easily able to throw 400'+ with DX aviars during a time when the fastest average discs were about a 5 or 6 speed (pre-speed ratings). I struggled to throw 350'+ consistently previously using the 'faster' discs (viper, barracuda...). Like you, I attribute this improvement more or less directly to my training, and less so to improved technique or equipment (training was the primary variable), but I was also entering the 'prime' of my athletic capability. Leg strength and speed were never an issue for me, personally, but both are improved via swimming with little impact on the body.

It doesn't matter if you believe me, because you're on your own trip. My suggestion is merely that, but it's also backed by decades of experience and sound reasoning. Sadly, in my experience, very few people are ever convinced by reason and logic alone....

The funny thing is that I wasn't trying to poke any holes in the ideas you presented at all. You actually originally presented no logic, reasoning, or anecdotes behind your assertion that swimming was certainly better than running for disc golf (and that you will "last longer as a golfer" by swimming). I actually still suspect that for certain aspects of disc golf that sprinting and interval training are better workouts than swimming. However, your anecdotal evidence of your own experience has certainly convinced me that swimming is likely to be very beneficial, more beneficial than I would have expected.

Your implications that I have perhaps never read a book on the general concepts of physical fitness or that I would not be convinced by reason or logic are both false. I am happily convinced by reasoning when it is presented. There is quite a bit of recent research that suggests that running may not be as bad for your knees and joints as was previously thought. See this article for example:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/well/move/running-may-be-good-for-your-knees.html. So the assertion that one should swim because running will make your body fall apart is not necessarily true (which is not to imply that swimming is not good exercise).

You say that when you were swimming and trying to improve your distance you were at the peak of your athletic ability so strength and speed weren't really an issue for you. Well, I'm 35, not at the peak of anything, and strength and speed are an issue for me (I wasn't playing disc golf at the peak of my athletic ability so I'll never know how far I might have thrown). I am happy to report that both have been significantly improved by running. I will agree with you now that they probably also would be by swimming.

 

[Mike C]

I don't know if this adds to the discussion....but....

I've never been completely out of shape since starting disc golf,but my weight has fluctuated up to 30lbs depending on how much cycling and weight lifting I do.

I did not notice any correlation between pursuing these activities hard, and my disc golf distance.

When I was cycling 250-300 miles a week, it was very difficult for disc golf to wear me out. I'd play Renny Gold twice and feel fantastic. My endurance was through the roof, and something as low intensity as walking with a backpack never phased me.

When I was hitting my PR's in the gym doing power lifting routines, I noticed I never got any soreness from disc golf. Typically my right shoulder will sometimes be a bit sore after playing a lot of long, intense courses, and if I do say, 5,000 putts in a week, I tend to feel a little tender in my hamstring / glute on the side where I bend down to pick up missed putts.

So I can't say I noticed a distance increase, but my ability to resist soreness and fatigue definitely improved.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

What Mike C. is touching upon here is not only general fitness but the concept of muscular endurance. Most people know that not much raw strength is required for DG, rather muscle endurance is needed, which differs from raw aerobic fitness. I've seen MikeC in person and can vouch for his general fitness level - people in his position will almost certainly see the greatest gains in power/distance from improved technique.

HughesHilton is being a bit off-point by purposefully ignoring the assumption (taken for granted), that anyone engaged in any fitness routine needs to tailor that routine to their own level, their own body and their own goals. If he is scared to substitute one swimming session for one running session per work-out cycle to see if that might yield some desired results, then fair enough. I know many folks who find swimming distasteful and unless one's a masochist, why have a distasteful hobby?

Given an average person in good condition, it's a no-brainer which form of exercise is harder on the body - swimming or running. Comparatively, running does very little for the upper body unless you augment it in some measure, while swimming spreads its effect more evenly over the entire body. Running is cheap and can be done anywhere. Swimmers require a special venue. Blah, blah, blah...

Mocheez is correct. Anytime you raise the arm above shoulder height in sport you risk the shoulder joint. The question is how you are executing this move. Are you throwing hundreds of full-power tomahawks with max weight plastic? Or are you rhythmically raising and lowering a light weight against gravity or water resistance hundreds of times?

Frankly, I'm amazed that another person can't seem to simply admit: Yeah, I can see how swimming might improve your disc golf game in the ways you suggest (even when they have admitted no experience in the matter)....which only proves to me, that in large measure these forums are just another dominance game nested inside a series of dominance games...go figure.

 

[dehaas]

Last fall I pretty much gave up disc golf to train for a power lift meet in December. Part of the lack of golf was due to more time in the gym, but some of it wasn't wanting to tweak an ankle or shoulder or something and put me out of commission halfway through my prep. I caught maybe 2-3 rounds between September and December, but overall I wasn't gassed after 18, and would've felt fine after 36. I was deadlifting and squatting like crazy with a lot of other core and back work.

Overall I think the muscular endurance is what made things feel better. I was obviously stronger, so I think I was getting just as much D without as much effort. Especially with focus on power lift moves, which are hugely impacted by proper technique, I think I was also a lot more aware of my body positioning.

Fast forward to this spring/summer, I was burnt out after the meet. Hit my 500lb deadlift and 400lb squat and missed playing dg. So I haven't hardly lifted anything since March and gave been enjoying league and getting out as much as I can. My sister conned me into running a Ragnar in June and I think that's the training route I'll go. More running and weights will be lighter weight with a focus more on endurance. Couple of guys at the gym asked if I'm gonna train for the power lift meet this December and I'm gonna pass and run an insanely difficult local trail run instead. I think running and lighter lifting will be the best balance without getting me burnt out in the process.

 

[Jimbat]

I am a big fan of rowing to increase endurance while also working on my hip-hinge initiated power, but really we should be talking about the olympic lifts (for more hip power efficiency).

Nothing trains your body for generating power from the hips like proper Cleans and Snatches. Squats and deadlifts are important movements too, but don't have quite the same level of "total-body" exercise. Powerlifting is great, and I did it for years, but in my opinion powerlifting focuses too much on static positions (i.e. deadlift/squat/bench) instead of training the body to be athletic, balanced, and smooth, while remaining powerful throughout the entire range of human motion.

Don't go to a Crossfit gym though. Their programming is pretty stupid and they seemingly try to set you up for burnout, injury and failure from their "grind till you die approach" mixed with "more weight, more faster". Rest, diet, and periodicity of exercise are equally important as the actual exercise part.

 

[Horsman]

Don't go to a Crossfit gym though. Their programming is pretty stupid and they seemingly try to set you up for burnout, injury and failure from their "grind till you die approach" mixed with "more weight, more faster". Rest, diet, and periodicity of exercise are equally important as the actual exercise part.

Dont go to a Crossfit gym without first doing some research about said gym you want to join. A lot of them do have some real crappy programming and even worse coaching but you can find good ones out there. If you are new to working out then doing complex movements for time is a horrible idea and even if you are proficient at them its still probably not the best idea. But if you go to learn, get in shape, not compete and just try to better yourself then there is no reason why you shouldnt. Its a lot less intimidating for a lot of people compared to your big box gyms and you will get in better shape and be more aware of how your body works.

 

[Mocheez]

However, your anecdotal evidence of your own experience has certainly convinced me that swimming is likely to be very beneficial, more beneficial than I would have expected.

Frankly, I'm amazed that another person can't seem to simply admit: Yeah, I can see how swimming might improve your disc golf game in the ways you suggest (even when they have admitted no experience in the matter)....which only proves to me, that in large measure these forums are just another dominance game nested inside a series of dominance games...go figure.

I have never been much of a swimmer but I can see how it would positively impact my disc golf game. For those that don't have access to a swimming pool, I can see how simple household chores could have a positive impact.

 

[Jimbat]

Yeah I apologize for speaking in absolutes. However, I strongly agree that complex movements for time is usually a pretty bad idea. When you get tired, things happen. No matter how good you are, can you guarantee 40+ years of doing the movement correctly every time, at the cost of a single mistake potentially ruining a body part?

Take my opinion of my local Crossfit instruction with a grain of salt, but I still stand by the rest of my post. Quite literally nothing is better for training weight shift and hip-hinge efficiency than the exercises I mentioned.

 

[sscarmana]

I have started doing "disc golf cross training". Jog to the school near the house, then throw a drive or two. Jog to the shot, throw, and jog to the next shot. Jog home after a full circuit of the campus. Feels great!

 

[sidewinder22]

Do you have any shoulder issues? I read somewhere that swimming is rough on the shoulders.

Former NCAA D1 swimmer/record holder here. As with any activity, technique makes a big difference. Freestyle and Backstroke are easier on the shoulders because your body can roll back and forth to move more streamlined and fish-like, unlike Butterfly and Breastroke which keeps you more static in the prone position and have to undulate like dolphin. Smooth is fast in swimming like smooth is far in throwing.

My favorite thing to do in the pool while not fitness training as much as technique is to practice throwing, stand neck deep in athletic stance and feel the resistance and leverage. This also helps keep people out of your lane because they think you are crazy doing 360 turn arounds.

 

[sidewinder22]

Don't go to a Crossfit gym though. Their programming is pretty stupid and they seemingly try to set you up for burnout, injury and failure from their "grind till you die approach" mixed with "more weight, more faster". Rest, diet, and periodicity of exercise are equally important as the actual exercise part.

My PT also said to not do Crossfit. My BIL also tore his rotator cuff doing Crossfit.

 

[hugheshilton]

I have never been much of a swimmer but I can see how it would positively impact my disc golf game. For those that don't have access to a swimming pool, I can see how simple household chores could have a positive impact.

Haha, thanks Mocheez! I was going to reply to curmudgeonDwindle and quote myself, but you saved me the trouble. :thmbup: