Should I Blow Up My Form and Start Over?

[SonicGuy]

I'd like to see the stats to back up this idea. It's going to be very course dependent as well. There are some 250' holes that many top pros don't get, yet a wide open 400' hole? Most of the open field is going to have a good chance at a birdie there.

The stats have been posted multiple times, paging Chuck Kennedy. The problem is that "most have a good chance" doesn't convert to "most get a birdie", it converts to 10% get a birdie.

 

[UhhNegative]

The stats have been posted multiple times, paging Chuck Kennedy. The problem is that "most have a good chance" doesn't convert to "most get a birdie", it converts to 10% get a birdie.

Sure, but the little differences are what separate scores. I'm not sure it would be 10%.... Just based on some of the stats that they rattle off on Jomez. But you also have to think that not only do you have to throw a great drive, you have to hit the putt as well. More distance can also mitigate bogeys as well. Not as cut and dry as looking at birdie percentage as a function of distance. I can't find those stats anywhere so far.

 

[Shamis]

I believe this notion is false. The statistics on how pros score on 400' wide open holes is pretty bad. Yeah the top 10 disc golfers in the world are converting at a higher rate, but they are also dragging the statistics up so for the rest of the field the 400' birdie conversion is even more rare. Unless you are saying that the 400' power is more for helping with those 360' holes...

I do think 400' distance is a big help, but more because it cuts down the longer holes into a surefire 3 and allows for inefficient lines up and over or way around.

I dunno man, there's a big difference between having a good drive and getting a circle 1 putt, and having the best drive of your life and still putting from the edge of circle 2.

 

[SonicGuy]

Sure, but the little differences are what separate scores. I'm not sure it would be 10%.... Just based on some of the stats that they rattle off on Jomez. But you also have to think that not only do you have to throw a great drive, you have to hit the putt as well. More distance can also mitigate bogeys as well. Not as cut and dry as looking at birdie percentage as a function of distance. I can't find those stats anywhere so far.

The original comment was literally about birdie percentage as a function of distance. Don't try to straw man me here.

As for how much difference that 10% makes, I mean, no this little difference is not what separates scores. How many holes on a course are within reach of 400' power but not 360' power? A couple? This isn't Jomez, nobody here is playing in those pro events where that is the ideal par 3 length with temp baskets and whatnot. Most courses out there are not heavily populated with that stretch par 3, so maybe you pick up 1/3 of a stroke a round. MAYBE.

 

[SonicGuy]

I dunno man, there's a big difference between having a good drive and getting a circle 1 putt, and having the best drive of your life and still putting from the edge of circle 2.

My point is that even for big arms, landing circle 1 from 400' doesn't happen very often.

 

[UhhNegative]

The original comment was literally about birdie percentage as a function of distance. Don't try to straw man me here.

As for how much difference that 10% makes, I mean, no this little difference is not what separates scores. How many holes on a course are within reach of 400' power but not 360' power? A couple? This isn't Jomez, nobody here is playing in those pro events where that is the ideal par 3 length with temp baskets and whatnot. Most courses out there are not heavily populated with that stretch par 3, so maybe you pick up 1/3 of a stroke a round. MAYBE.

But I thought we were talking about pros....

 

[UhhNegative]

My point is that even for big arms, landing circle 1 from 400' doesn't happen very often.

I'm just not believing this. I would believe it if the stats back it up, but so far I'm looking at the Memorial from last year (just picked a random tournament; well and I know it has wide open long holes). All of the 400+ feet par 3s I've looked at so far have >25% birdie percentage... Seems to me you would need to actually throw that distance to get a birdie chance and about 25% of the pro field seem to do so.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I'm just not believing this. I would believe it if the stats back it up, but so far I'm looking at the Memorial from last year (just picked a random tournament; well and I know it has wide open long holes). All of the 400+ feet par 3s I've looked at so far have >25% birdie percentage... Seems to me you would need to actually throw that distance to get a birdie chance and about 25% of the pro field seem to do so.

I'm not doubting your claim of distances, but you could easily have people throwing 375-380' and be left with 20-25' putts on the short side of 400'.

/devil's advocate

 

[UhhNegative]

I'm not doubting your claim of distances, but you could easily have people throwing 375-380' and be left with 20-25' putts on the short side of 400'.

/devil's advocate

Very true, but less likely, especially for a full 25% of the field (the birdie % and C1 in regulation are close to the same). I just scrolled through the memorial rounds and looked at the holes >400 feet and par 3. Some are >450 and even those had ~25% birdie/C1 in regulation. Of course elevation/wind and all that comes into play as well but I've looked at enough holes to convince myself that throwing >400' accurately is a valuable skill for the pro level of play and not just the top 10 guys.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Very true, but less likely, especially for a full 25% of the field (the birdie % and C1 in regulation are close to the same). I just scrolled through the memorial rounds and looked at the holes >400 feet and par 3. Some are >450 and even those had ~25% birdie/C1 in regulation. Of course elevation/wind and all that comes into play as well but I've looked at enough holes to convince myself that throwing >400' accurately is a valuable skill for the pro level of play and not just the top 10 guys.

I like to equate it to being able to tow a trailer at your car's maximum capacity... sure, it will work - but you're not leaving much room for error.

If you're "pouring it on" to hit 400' - you better be operating a very tight ship. (so many metaphors here!)

I'd rather somebody be able to feel comfortable throwing 400' without having to flex a disc, use a turny disc or throw a roller.

True talk: in Colorado, I see a ton of MPO players that don't throw 450' on flat ground. They might be fairly accurate to 425' - but the jump between 60-65mph throwers and 70-75+ mph throwers is significant.



To be clear, I personally don't EVER see anybody except Eagle throwing shots that look like this 650+ shot.

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/41911

Adam Hammes and AJ both maxing out at 468'. Can they throw further? Probably - but under pressure and with whatever wind conditions, reality is that it's very difficult to keep a disc in the air that long.

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/37871

Dave Felberg hit 432' in the pro masters division.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Steve West]

I'm just not believing this. I would believe it if the stats back it up, but so far I'm looking at the Memorial from last year (just picked a random tournament; well and I know it has wide open long holes). All of the 400+ feet par 3s I've looked at so far have >25% birdie percentage... Seems to me you would need to actually throw that distance to get a birdie chance and about 25% of the pro field seem to do so.

I have scores from 19,172 player-rounds on 198 holes with a listed length from 390 to 410 feet for 975-rated players.

On 29 of those holes the players got more than 25% twos or aces.

On the other 169 holes the players got fewer than 25% twos or aces.

The average of all the holes was 14.7% twos or aces.​

 

[SonicGuy]

But I thought we were talking about pros....

They have come up but did you bother to read the OP? Clearly not a pro, and advice that he should get into the 400' max D "sweet spot" is not good advice just so he can have a couple looks for a bonus birdie.

I have scores from 19,172 player-rounds on 198 holes with a listed length from 390 to 410 feet for 975-rated players.

On 29 of those holes the players got more than 25% twos or aces.

On the other 169 holes the players got fewer than 25% twos or aces.

The average of all the holes was 14.7% twos or aces.​

Ok 15%, thanks :thmbup:

 

[UhhNegative]

They have come up but did you bother to read the OP? Clearly not a pro, and advice that he should get into the 400' max D "sweet spot" is not good advice just so he can have a couple looks for a bonus birdie.



Ok 15%, thanks :thmbup:

Oh yeah, we are way off-topic right now. Yeah for average joe maybe he doesn't want 400' or could focus on another part of the game (true for most, probably). But it sounds like the the "big arms" are getting birdies on the longer holes and its giving them a non-negligible advantage. 15% of 975 rated players scoring on a 400' hole sounds about right to me. Those are the players getting those extra couple strokes that put them ahead of eveyone else (all else being equal). It's likely a lot of those 975 rated players don't have a comfortable 400' shot because you can get 975 rated with a really strong game inside of 200' and an average level drive.

 

[sidewinder22]

https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/37871

Dave Felberg hit 432' in the pro masters division.

Interesting discussion.

Pat Brown beat all the masters from the grand master division @534'.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I love seeing all the discussion here. Thank you. And my shoulder feels better even today. I was smart to stop immediately. Probably just a little muscle tear.

My goal is to hit 350' smoothly, accurately and consistently, so that I can belong at tournaments again. If I can hang in there with the better Am 40+ players I will feel good. And if I can get better than that too, I'll take it. I think it would be something to enter Am-1 as an old guy and belong there.

I'm already a good putter for an Am. At putting league two weeks ago I hit 61% from 30 feet. I don't know what 975-rated state level type pros do at 30', but I feel pretty good about that part of my game for who I am. You can watch this putting league on YouTube, by the way, from Crew 42. Search for Kalamazoo Putting League. The night I was there was "Night 2" in the series. I'm the older bearded guy with the green Wild Haven shirt, beige Buc-EE's hat, and Ron Russell-esque fist pumps in the air to clear my mind before concentrating. I didn't get on camera until round 2 (and I missed my first 3 before getting warmed up). I've learned from watching myself on this that I could probably stand to relax a little bit more. I'm a line-drive spin putter guy with the mindset of a baseball closing pitcher. I'm guessing I could make a few more if I wasn't so herky-jerky. My partner was more like 70% from 30 feet lofting his soft, easy hyzers with McPro Aviars, plus was 9 for 10 on the Marksman basket. A putting shark!

Oh, and Andrew Marwede was there the week prior. It's also on YouTube ("night 1" if memory serves). I wasn't there in person. I did re-watch that one and tabulated his results from 30 feet. Just over 80%. He was so smooth and non-nonchalant in comparison to the likes of somebody like me. He even was eating pizza with his non-putting hand during one sequence.

But, yeah, back to driving...what I want out of this journey into scrapping my form is to get 15 more minutes in the sun and be able to hold my head high before I'm too old. If I could get back up to and sustain a 950 rating starting all over at the age of 46, I'd jump for joy.

I'm already at 300' smoothly, fairly accurately and fairly consistently, although I could be better. I do it with flippy drivers too. Lots of Sidewinders and Roadrunners in my bag. Another 50 feet seems reasonable to attain even though I know it will be a lot of work and dedication, but then I'll have the chance to birdie some holes that I currently have to throw in from outside C2 to do it.

Disc Golf is the closest thing I have to religion. I'm all in!

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Pat Brown beat all the masters from the grand master division @534'.

Glad to see you here, Sidewinder. What's the best video on YouTube to demonstrate putter standstills?

Dave Feldberg was from my area and era originally. I played in several tournaments with him in 1999 in Am-1 before he got super good. One day I was at Cold Brook and he was throwing OVER trees instead of through them like everybody else on this one hole and I'd never seen somebody do that before. He was always nice to me, by the way...

 

[sidewinder22]

Glad to see you here, Sidewinder. What's the best video on YouTube to demonstrate putter standstills?

Dave Feldberg was from my area and era originally. I played in several tournaments with him in 1999 in Am-1 before he got super good. One day I was at Cold Brook and he was throwing OVER trees instead of through them like everybody else on this one hole and I'd never seen somebody do that before. He was always nice to me, by the way...

Don't "standstill" statically per se, but keep moving/shifting back and forth between the feet slightly and the arm/disc in motion like a ball on string. My swing is very Feldberg-ish, the backswing pendulum(and windmill over top) IMO is a lot more intuitive/smoother/forgiving, than trying to time the transition unhinging/hinging of the arm straight back/forth while fighting gravity and often results in jerkiness.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Thank you Sidewinder. I will be digesting these over the coming days.

 

[Shamis]

I'm not doubting your claim of distances, but you could easily have people throwing 375-380' and be left with 20-25' putts on the short side of 400'.

/devil's advocate

If the basket is 400 feet away, and you can only throw 375, the closest possible putt you can have is 25 feet, and that's if you land the disc exactly in line with the basket. You only have a 46 foot wide landing area if you want to be inside circle 1.

If you can throw 400 feet exactly, now you have a 60 foot wide landing area that all leaves you inside circle 1, and a perfect throw means a drop in. That seems like a significant difference to me.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

If the basket is 400 feet away, and you can only throw 375, the closest possible putt you can have is 25 feet, and that's if you land the disc exactly in line with the basket. You only have a 46 foot wide landing area if you want to be inside circle 1.

If you can throw 400 feet exactly, now you have a 60 foot wide landing area that all leaves you inside circle 1, and a perfect throw means a drop in. That seems like a significant difference to me.

I was strictly playing devil's advocate in that we could concoct a way to have people throwing < 400' and still being well within a comfortable putting range.

I'm a complete convert to the religion of "develop the power that you may not need"... hence my analogies about towing, etc.

I'm turning 45 in May and I've been putting some time in the gym for the first time in a VERY long time. I know it's not super fun, but I think that developing some level of balanced full-body training is going to make a difference for me in the upcoming years. Specifically in core strength, mobility, and range of motion for my neck, back and shoulders. I've noticed that I don't have the easy power that I had a few years back as those things (flexibility and strength) are decreasing... getting older means putting in work that I'm pretty lazy about, but I think it's worth it.