Sugaree in retrospect

[Steve West]

We played holes 1+1A combined in a recent tournament there, which I'm guessing is the basket location you're talking about, perched on a rock above the path. It averaged a score over 5, even for MPO. Getting to the ideal landing zone from the tee shot was exceptionally difficult, and anything short/outside of that landing zone then dealt with an uphill tunnel approach that was tough to navigate. I think only one person in the entire tournament got a birdie 3. You can explore the scoring stats here, and swap between divisions using the dropdown - https://www.pdga.com/apps/tournament/live/event?eventId=48941&division=MPO&view=Stats&round=2

That MPO field had an average rating of just 943. For 1000-rated players, I'd figure an average of 4.84. Still a par 4 for MPO. Par 5 for MA1.

All the other pars were good for both MPO and MA1, except the 190 foot hole #1 should be par 2 for both.

 

[Mando]

That MPO field had an average rating of just 943. For 1000-rated players, I'd figure an average of 4.84. Still a par 4 for MPO. Par 5 for MA1.

All the other pars were good for both MPO and MA1, except the 190 foot hole #1 should be par 2 for both.

Yep. I actually had hole 1 as a par two, and 1A as a 3, but it created too much confusion.

 

[Mando]

Gotcha. I could see that. Maybe the 1st tee could be moved up the hill 50 feet or so to create the right scoring opportunity. Maybe that area is better as 2 holes but with a different basket location for the 1st one. I don't know. Those types of things could easily be determined.

The 1st tee pad is exactly where it needs to be, it's the first hole...non-negotiable.

 

[cox3]

There's no such thing as a par 2, unless maybe the tee box is inside of circle 1-- in which case it shouldn't be a hole anyway. A really easy par 3 doesn't make it a par 2. I don't know what people's fascination with that silly idea is... Par is the number of throws it typically takes to reach the basket +2.

 

[Ryan P.]

There's no such thing as a par 2, unless maybe the tee box is inside of circle 1-- in which case it shouldn't be a hole anyway. A really easy par 3 doesn't make it a par 2. I don't know what people's fascination with that silly idea is... Par is the number of throws it typically takes to reach the basket +2.

not according to the definition of par, but that's a can of worms for another thread.

 

[Steve West]

... Par is the number of throws it typically takes to reach the basket +2.

Try saying that in the Par Talk thread. I dare you.

Just a warning, you'd better bring authoritative sources.

 

[Mando]

Sid and I have a lot of ideas how Sugaree could become a destination course. I mean, it's probably the most fun course I've ever played, and has it all. It isn't cart friendly and that is an issue with 31 holes....

It truly is a remarkable place that needs a few tweaks to start getting a lot of traffic. If that's what you want??

I'm all ears. Fire away.

 

[cox3]

Just for kicks, based on my 1 trip ever to the property, without even making any dramatic hole/course changes, I think this would be a really nice 18 hole routing:

1>1A
2
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
21
22
Rev8/9/5
6
7
Rev 4/3
24
25

 

[Mando]

Just for kicks, based on my 1 trip ever to the property, without even making any dramatic hole/course changes, I think this would be a really nice 18 hole routing:

1>1A
2
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
21
22
Rev8/9/5
6
7
Rev 4/3
24
25

That's brilliant! Using the existing tee at 23 to tie into 8/9/5. 2 could be extended to #9 basket

 

[cox3]

That's brilliant! Using the existing tee at 23 to tie into 8/9/5. 2 could be extended to #9 basket

I have some more thoughts/questions as well... Most of this I can't give a real concrete opinion because I don't have enough memory/knowledge but they are just ideas based on my memory/maps...

1>1A - If it really is too difficult to get to a fair landing zone to approach the basket, are there any trees that could be removed to achieve this rather than just relying on chance...

2 - Could go to 9's basket as a short par 4 but I'm not sure that would play better than current hole 2 does as a par 3. Plus extending the hole would bring current 10 & 24 and reverse 4>3>23 more in harm's way from errant throws or "cutting the corner" throws...

10 - I would like to know how many 2's are ever recorded on this hole. It's a difficult tee shot with decent distance to an extremely treacherous pin. I feel like shortening this hole a bit to achieve more 2's might be a positive. I would usually suggest moving the basket 20-50 feet closer while keeping it on the ledge but I seem to remember the basket being in a very unique location so maybe moving the tee location up some would be the better option to achieve the same result.

11 - I loved this hole. Short and technical but still demanding. My only question would be is it possible to hit the "wall" on the left and still have a birdie putt?? Because, if it is, I would try to move the basket back a little if possible to disallow this. I feel like you should have to hit the "alley" to get a birdie.

12 - Pretty standard RHBH hole but nothing wrong with it. I remember there being a lot of trees on the second half of the hole. I wonder if a group of pros would think the line to the basket was fair or chance. If it's more chance, could the basket be moved slightly or could a tree or two be removed to make it a more fair line...

13 - I loved this hole. Very picturesque. I would like to see some pro scoring data and see how many 3's are recorded. It seemed like a very tough 3 my one time through. If it isn't getting a proper scoring spread, maybe the tee could be moved up just a little to make a birdie 3 more attainable...

14 - I loved this green. The current shot is fine but kind of nondescript. Would it be possible to have a tee adjacent to 13's basket in the open and play this hole as a par 4?? I think this green would play really well as an approach shot on a par 4. Plus, I feel like the tee could be placed down the slope some creating another incline tee shot along the hillside...

15 - I wonder if this hole could be reworked to play to current 18's basket location (possibly from a new tee beyond 14's basket), probably as a par 4... It would be great if the large tree/boulder currently making up 15 could be the "pinch point" in the middle of the fairway some way that you would need to clear in order to get a reasonable approach shot to the basket on the second shot...

16 - Another terrific basket location. If 15 were reworked to 18's basket, it would probably eliminate current 16's tee. If so, a new tee could probably be created somewhere in the first half of current 18-- which could even be an advantage since it could be an opportunity to create a gap in the tree line required to hit off the tee instead of the virtually wide open shot it is now...

17 - Very fun, technical downhill shot. If you are going to 21's tee instead of current 18's tee from this basket, perhaps there would be an opportunity to extend this hole further down the slope nearer to 21's tee. I seem to remember this basket location having some unique character though so maybe that is more important than any place it could be placed further down the slope... I'm not sure...

21 - Loved this hole. I don't remember where any improvements could be made. Perfect distance/incline to be very demanding. Just tight enough to be demanding while still having just enough to space to move a disc enough to get it all the way there. Very nice "shelf" used as a basket location.

22 - This hole definitely felt like a "poke and hope" for the last ~75 feet. Way too many small trees, in my opinion. Fun tee shot. I just feel like all of the smaller diameter trees on the green could go, just leaving the medium/larger ones. A perfect tee shot should get rewarded, not have to also get lucky.

Rev 8-9/5 - Could go 23>5 like you suggested but I seem to remember the shot off 23 as a little funky angled, in my opinion. Plus making the hole more "J/U" is just going to make people try to "cheat the corner" more and take away from the integrity of the desired hole. I would put this tee way back close to current 10's and force a very demanding shot through an alley in the forest out to the field. If that is achieved then players would have a bomb shot over the field to a spot on current hole 5 where they could have a reasonable 3rd shot to current basket 5... This would obviously be a par 5...

6 - Loved this hole. Very technical downhill shot. Loved the large boulder you have to clear mid-fairway. I don't remember anything about this hole that needed changing...

7 - I wonder if this hole could be extended to play to current hole 4's basket... (I loved that basket location. But I also think playing current hole 3/4 in their current direction is what's hurting the flow of the course the most...) If so, I'm not sure if that would be a par 4 or 5. It would just need to be played. The tee location could be adjusted as well to shorten it for a par 4 or lengthen it for a par 5 too if needed to make the score spread appropriate.

Rev 4/3/23 - I don't know how this hole would look. It would just take some designing. It should be a really nice par 4 with a tight fairway and the slope to the right the whole way with the rock face on the left.

24 - I really liked this hole. Nice, fun technical short par 3. I like the way the foliage, slope, and rock face all interact to form this fairway. My only concern was how close it is to 25's tee. Not sure if that can be avoided. Maybe the basket and tee could both be moved back away from 25's tee (especially since there should be a pretty large distance from 4's basket to 24's basket to essentially have just 2 holes...

25 - Very fun, very challenging finishing hole. I don't think anything needs to change here. If the previous basket stays close, perhaps a wall could be erected to shield this tee from the previous hole...

Could be looking at an 18 hole, par 63 layout in this configuration that would keep all of the incredible basket locations that make the character of the course while having a great flow and a terrific balance of incline/decline, left/right, and a few bomb shot opportunities despite being a forested course...

 

[Mando]

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions, but honestly I do not think they would improve the course. I looked at reversing the holes and they just don't work for me. You are talking about eliminating 4 of the best/favorite holes (4,18,20,23) while retaining holes that most folks feel are vastly less interesting.
The first hole most definitely needs to be split into two holes. Starting with the most difficult and uphill hole on the course is in my opinion,terrible design.Lastly, I don't see nuetering a hole like 10 (or any other hole), just because there are not alot of birdies.
At the end of the day, we just don't seem to agree on much,but I do appreciate your input.

 

[cox3]

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions, but honestly I do not think they would improve the course. I looked at reversing the holes and they just don't work for me. You are talking about eliminating 4 of the best/favorite holes (4,18,20,23) while retaining holes that most folks feel are vastly less interesting.
The first hole most definitely needs to be split into two holes. Starting with the most difficult and uphill hole on the course is in my opinion,terrible design.Lastly, I don't see nuetering a hole like 10 (or any other hole), just because there are not alot of birdies.
At the end of the day, we just don't seem to agree on much,but I do appreciate your input.

No problem. I love discussing hole/course design. And obviously it's your property and your resources.

I think you pretty much summed it up saying we just don't agree on much. For instance, 4/8/20/23 seemed to me like 4 of the worst/need to be fixed holes on the course. I loved the basket location on #4 but, for me, it's just throw a drive to inside of 100 feet, pitch a putter to the basket, and make a 3. It looks cool but it's very much a par 3/4 tweener. #18 is definitely a par 3/4 tweener from what I remember-- it isn't long enough to be a par 4 but it's such a sharp angle to make a 2 very attainable. I wish I remembered #20 better but I seem to recall having the thought that I didn't care for the tee shot all that much even though the basket was in a "cool" area. And #23 was the biggest negative on the course, in my opinion, because it played right through 2 other holes and was just a weird shape with a bunch of random trees in the middle that just felt like more like luck than skill. Also, #10 just feels like a hole where the objective is to throw a clean drive inside of circle 2, pitch a putter up near the basket, and make a 3.

But these are the kinds of things that I value in hole/course design-- along with quality tee pads, quality baskets, informative tee signs, etc. I do realize that most players care more about "cool and interesting" than anything else. And don't get me wrong, I LOVED all of the awesome basket locations and physical features on the course-- I just think some of the golf aspects could be cleaned up in some areas. It sounds like the holes that "most folks feel are vastly less interesting" are the holes that I enjoyed the most. And that's fine. To each their own.

Again, thanks for all of your hard work on creating the course and making it available to play! I wouldn't worry so much about ratings or rankings or reviews. It truly is a gem in any format. I hope I have the opportunity to return and enjoy it again one day! Maybe next time we can coordinate to play a round together...

 

[Mando]

No problem. I love discussing hole/course design. And obviously it's your property and your resources.

I think you pretty much summed it up saying we just don't agree on much. For instance, 4/8/20/23 seemed to me like 4 of the worst/need to be fixed holes on the course. I loved the basket location on #4 but, for me, it's just throw a drive to inside of 100 feet, pitch a putter to the basket, and make a 3. It looks cool but it's very much a par 3/4 tweener. #18 is definitely a par 3/4 tweener from what I remember-- it isn't long enough to be a par 4 but it's such a sharp angle to make a 2 very attainable. I wish I remembered #20 better but I seem to recall having the thought that I didn't care for the tee shot all that much even though the basket was in a "cool" area. And #23 was the biggest negative on the course, in my opinion, because it played right through 2 other holes and was just a weird shape with a bunch of random trees in the middle that just felt like more like luck than skill. Also, #10 just feels like a hole where the objective is to throw a clean drive inside of circle 2, pitch a putter up near the basket, and make a 3.

But these are the kinds of things that I value in hole/course design-- along with quality tee pads, quality baskets, informative tee signs, etc. I do realize that most players care more about "cool and interesting" than anything else. And don't get me wrong, I LOVED all of the awesome basket locations and physical features on the course-- I just think some of the golf aspects could be cleaned up in some areas. It sounds like the holes that "most folks feel are vastly less interesting" are the holes that I enjoyed the most. And that's fine. To each their own.

Again, thanks for all of your hard work on creating the course and making it available to play! I wouldn't worry so much about ratings or rankings or reviews. It truly is a gem in any format. I hope I have the opportunity to return and enjoy it again one day! Maybe next time we can coordinate to play a round together...

Ironically, you concerns about poke and pray on holes 12 and 22 were addressed by a tornado that came through after you played. Both holes have been cleaned up.
I always like hearing different ideas. Admittedly, my number one priority designing the course was maximizing the visual attributes with the tee pad and basket locations.
You seem to feel how the hole scores relative to par and the amenities override the aesthetics. Fair enough, to each his own.
I know that #23 violates the cardinal rule of no crossing fairways, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's never been an issue, up until the last tournament, when it created a bottleneck. We simply do not have enough traffic for it to be a problem. BTW, there are no random trees in the middle. You must have it confused with another hole. If you think it's the biggest negative on the course, I'm taking that as a huge compliment.

 

[aredoubles]

IMO 23 is the best hole at Sugaree and probably makes my dream 18.

 

[cox3]

Ironically, you concerns about poke and pray on holes 12 and 22 were addressed by a tornado that came through after you played. Both holes have been cleaned up.
I always like hearing different ideas. Admittedly, my number one priority designing the course was maximizing the visual attributes with the tee pad and basket locations.
You seem to feel how the hole scores relative to par and the amenities override the aesthetics. Fair enough, to each his own.
I know that #23 violates the cardinal rule of no crossing fairways, but I think it's worth mentioning that it's never been an issue, up until the last tournament, when it created a bottleneck. We simply do not have enough traffic for it to be a problem. BTW, there are no random trees in the middle. You must have it confused with another hole. If you think it's the biggest negative on the course, I'm taking that as a huge compliment.

Just to clarify, I definitely wouldn't say those factors override aesthetics. I value aesthetics probably above all. I've played lots of courses that were 100% technically sound with great infrastructure but just felt completely sterile and boring with no defining characteristics. My comments are based strictly from the viewpoint of "achieving perfection". Your course is definitely on my short list of best courses ever in terms of aesthetics-- maybe even #1. So that part is just a given.

 

[Mando]

So I took another look at reversing 8/9 and you are right, it is a much better hole teeing off from the #9 basket location rather than the #23 tee pad. The only downside is that it's a bit of a walk from 22's basket (360 feet) and at least one tree would have to be removed. For anyone contemplating cutting the corner on the second shot, they would have to deal with the Christmas trees being OB. Visually stunning valley shot off the tee. Checks all the boxes for me.
The other reversal (4/3) would instantly become the toughest hole on the course with extremely narrow landing zones for the first two shots. Teeing off from the current #4 basket might just become the new favorite tee location, but not for the faint of heart.