Surge Wants A Better Backhand

[Sheep]

Playing 8-9 months. Distance 225-250', and about 275' rare max, with a 150g Katana. I definitely cock my wrist from the start, and leave it cocked - found that helped me the most with consistency. Sounds like, as a step to throwing longer, I am going to have to start uncocked, and cock my wrist in the pocket?! I will have to try to remember to play with that next trip to a practice field.

Curl in, push out.

You're better off focusing on keeping your wrist straight more than anything.

Trying to curl it passed straight just adds a level of unnecessary difficulty.

The more you can do to stay relaxed, the better your kinetic chain can be. Because we wanna build up everything and explode with power. We dont want to explode with power from the start and slow down.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Curl in, push out.

You're better off focusing on keeping your wrist straight more than anything.

Trying to curl it passed straight just adds a level of unnecessary difficulty.

The more you can do to stay relaxed, the better your kinetic chain can be. Because we wanna build up everything and explode with power. We dont want to explode with power from the start and slow down.

I have to curl. When I don't, I have a natural hyzer I can't control, and my consistency goes out the window. With no curl of the wrist, my throw goes to crap - I get very erratic. Even putting, the wrist cock/curl is crucial for me. No curl, my putt comes out on a hyzer and goes left. Cock my wrist, flick wrist on release, nice and flat and straight.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

@Sheep yeah he doesn't need to go full off on the wide rails but I do find that the exaggerated movements help get a feeling, even if they stick with a tighter throw (Like me). Combined with the dingle arm and figure 8 it helped me. Besides Surge5 has been reviewing for years... 161 reviews

 

[RowingBoats]

I have to curl. When I don't, I have a natural hyzer I can't control, and my consistency goes out the window. With no curl of the wrist, my throw goes to crap - I get very erratic. Even putting, the wrist cock/curl is crucial for me. No curl, my putt comes out on a hyzer and goes left. Cock my wrist, flick wrist on release, nice and flat and straight.

Interesting.

I am not one of the people who knows the most actual, literally true physics of the swing, I just try to describe how certain concepts helped me personally, but I did want to clarify one thing.

I do not consciously curl my wrist during the swing, at any point. To be fair, I also do not consciously NOT curl my wrist. It seems likely that my wrist might actually break a bit and load into a slightly curled position, but this is a biproduct of why the figure 8 pattern is useful, if it is happening at all.

I think I can kind of understand why deliberately loading your wrist might be a way to get some benefits, but I feel this technique is going to limit your actual power. The reason that I 'bring the disc in' then out, is that it feels like that movement contributes to a more seamless acceleration, and aids with keeping my swing taut. There is probably an interesting discussion to be had around this, or it may already have been discussed

 

[RowingBoats]

@Sheep yeah he doesn't need to go full off on the wide rails but I do find that the exaggerated movements help get a feeling, even if they stick with a tighter throw (Like me). Combined with the dingle arm and figure 8 it helped me. Besides Surge5 has been reviewing for years... 161 reviews

Pretty much this! I think there are quite a few ways to settle your final form preferences, but you must have this 'feeling' embedded in whatever ends up being your style.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I do not consciously curl my wrist during the swing, at any point. To be fair, I also do not consciously NOT curl my wrist. It seems likely that my wrist might actually break a bit and load into a slightly curled position, but this is a biproduct of why the figure 8 pattern is useful, if it is happening at all.

I think I can kind of understand why deliberately loading your wrist might be a way to get some benefits, but I feel this technique is going to limit your actual power. The reason that I 'bring the disc in' then out, is that it feels like that movement contributes to a more seamless acceleration, and aids with keeping my swing taut. There is probably an interesting discussion to be had around this, or it may already have been discussed

The flowing wrist in and out is helpful, it does depend on where you are at and what you have a feel for. A preloaded wrist is better for a beginner like ChrisinFl. Better to have it preloaded than not at all or trying to add late snap. Any kind of kinetic bounce you can add to your throw will add spin and/or distance but you gotta get through the ABC's before you hit the JKL steps. I preloaded for years, grabbing the outside of the disc but I was also only doing the last half of the figure 8.

 

[RowingBoats]

The flowing wrist in and out is helpful, it does depend on where you are at and what you have a feel for. A preloaded wrist is better for a beginner like ChrisinFl. Better to have it preloaded than not at all or trying to add late snap. Any kind of kinetic bounce you can add to your throw will add spin and/or distance but you gotta get through the ABC's before you hit the JKL steps. I preloaded for years, grabbing the outside of the disc but I was also only doing the last half of the figure 8.

Yep, its a complicated one because I agree that you can benefit in some ways from forcing a wrist curl, but I also think doing that is kind of a trap. Its like an objectively less power-potential way of moving the point of leverage back on the disc.

 

[Sheep]

I have to curl. When I don't, I have a natural hyzer I can't control, and my consistency goes out the window. With no curl of the wrist, my throw goes to crap - I get very erratic. Even putting, the wrist cock/curl is crucial for me. No curl, my putt comes out on a hyzer and goes left. Cock my wrist, flick wrist on release, nice and flat and straight.

not wrist curl.
Curl in arm.

I should have been more specific.

 

[Sheep]

@Sheep yeah he doesn't need to go full off on the wide rails but I do find that the exaggerated movements help get a feeling, even if they stick with a tighter throw (Like me). Combined with the dingle arm and figure 8 it helped me. Besides Surge5 has been reviewing for years... 161 reviews

Sorry, It was a poke at Overthrow there on the wide rail thing.

He had some video where he was trying to encourage people to do it, like no, fking stop. You have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.


Dingle arm for the win.

And yeah, its a tough one on the trying to get them to exaggerate a bit, but also not put themselves into a harder position by trying to teach them wide rail.

I stand by wide rail as being a more advanced technique. Mainly because of all the bad language and bad teaching out there, it will just make you throw poorly if you dont understand proper throwing mechanics.

 

[Surge5]

Besides Surge5 has been reviewing for years... 161 reviews

Hoping to pass 200 this year! Ironic that from 2014 to 2019 I only played 3 courses (Legacy, Lakeshore, and Wilbur Young). Then I caught the bug.

 

[Sheep]

Yep, its a complicated one because I agree that you can benefit in some ways from forcing a wrist curl, but I also think doing that is kind of a trap. Its like an objectively less power-potential way of moving the point of leverage back on the disc.

Based on trial and error, as well as watching players who throw with deep pockets.

When you're trying to achieve a deep pocket throw, that is when you wrist curl.

The basic way I can try and explain it is get the arm curled into the chest, then you kind of curl and pull the disc tight into the pocket. This will push your elbo forward, but you dont wanna pull and yank, cause you gonna wtf richard.
You gotta push the disc out then, but you've basically built a bit more "tight" kinetic chain by winding it up a bit harder before the burst.

 

[Surge5]

@Sheep keep it coming, this is helpful. Wish there wasn't 4 inches of snow on the ground so I could go try all this out after work!

 

[RowingBoats]

Based on trial and error, as well as watching players who throw with deep pockets.

When you're trying to achieve a deep pocket throw, that is when you wrist curl.

The basic way I can try and explain it is get the arm curled into the chest, then you kind of curl and pull the disc tight into the pocket. This will push your elbo forward, but you dont wanna pull and yank, cause you gonna wtf richard.
You gotta push the disc out then, but you've basically built a bit more "tight" kinetic chain by winding it up a bit harder before the burst.

Yep, the "tight" kinetic chain is what I was trying to describe with my 'tautness' comment before haha.

I think I could argue whether this technique is 'advanced' in either direction to be honest. Yes, you can get the wrong idea and mess yourself up trying to emulate this concept without understanding it. But for people who have gone the opposite way and are rounding super hard, simply forcing them to REALLY not do that can make some things click.

Its funny, because this is something I am currently actively working on exploring. When I emphasize the wide rail I have had some absolute crushes that felt like I didn't get anything on the disc at all. By far the most effortless throws have been with this concept emphasized for me.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Best way I can explain the wrist curl came from one of sw22? vids, he was doing the arm thing towards the pocket then he stopped his elbow and the wrist and disc naturally loaded itself. That's where pointing the elbow outwards for that second helps exaggerate and add to the motion.

 

[Sheep]

Yep, the "tight" kinetic chain is what I was trying to describe with my 'tautness' comment before haha.

I think I could argue whether this technique is 'advanced' in either direction to be honest. Yes, you can get the wrong idea and mess yourself up trying to emulate this concept without understanding it. But for people who have gone the opposite way and are rounding super hard, simply forcing them to REALLY not do that can make some things click.

Its funny, because this is something I am currently actively working on exploring. When I emphasize the wide rail I have had some absolute crushes that felt like I didn't get anything on the disc at all. By far the most effortless throws have been with this concept emphasized for me.

My biggest issue with people trying the wide rail is that you have to not be in the mindset of "pull to throw" or "reachback".

Because what happens when people try and wide rail is they "pull through" and wtf richard. then dont understand what went wrong.

Well, its because your brain is stuck on "pull" vs swing.

I'm not sure why josh ever dropped the "out in out" thing. But, wide rail needs deep pocket, and the discipline to understand you need to "push out" after the pocket. Or you just round.

The other one that I fall victim to on it is forgetting to get a full shoulder turn.

But the part that I struggle to understand with it is that it seems to generate a different output on the exit of the disc. and.. I don't get it. I know it does, I know it adds more spin, I know it changes the snap and the torque, but I dont understand how.

 

[Sheep]

 

[Nick Carroll]

Personally, I use the wide rail to combat rounding. It's on my To Do list to keep ironing this into muscle memory. I'm ok with a 6 to 7 o'clock extension, especially since I keep accidentally putting the disc at a 5 o'clock position, and rounding. I think the "pulling" that I learned to do basically created this problem. That said I normally think of this for drives, not approaches. (or higher effort throws)

My understanding for more spin with the "figure 8" style of backswing-to-swing movement is that you are increasing momentum by the time the disc travels to the power pocket. Similar to how a full extension of the throwing arm at the peak of backswing helps with these things compared to a partial "reach back." I think of it as more of additional movement prior to release. Like, the disc travels 5 feet instead of 3 feet (made up example with fake numbers) prior to getting into the power pocket.

To be clear, I know there's a difference between linear and angular momentum, but I think the increased momentum early on basically carries through, and both speed and spin increase as a result.

Lastly, one thing I want to mention is Lykke's recent video where she is throwing into a net. She and I have about the same throwing speed. 51-53 mph on a good drive. However she has 2-300 more rpms than I do (high 800s to low 900s for me - vs - high 1100s to low 1200s for her. She was able to increase spin a little by having the elbow up and out, as well as the shoulder. But she has a lot of good form elements, so I'm under the impression the more you have correct, the more spin will increase. Or at a minimum, less potential spin is lost.