The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[TheLastBoyScout]

It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.

Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.

 

[JR]

I have a tip for the failed part 4 drill the lever. I had trouble holding on to the disc for long enough and trying to push to the right with the thumb both vertical and BH. I clearly had slips with my Wizard with the thumb. The lower the disc and thinner the rim and preferably no bead the disc has the easier it is for people with small hands to learn these things that are sought after in the drills. The thing that pushed me forward with the Wizard S 150 with a stiffish flight plate and fairly slick surface was moving my thumb toward the center from the neutral position. Neutral being thumb finger print half on the wing half on the flight plate. Doing the throwing equivalent of Blake's earlier drill with shooting coins right from table top with the thumb alone never worked for me with a disc prior to this change. I have yet to try out how soft flight plates I can use without a loss of consistency but even that stiffish Wizard had some give in the flight plate under the thumb. I haven't seen 2003 PDGA Worlds DVD in ages but I think Climo showed thumb in on the flight plate grip "for better control" or something like that. Seems to work in drills.

I have yet to try out this in practice because I get no practice or playing time :-( Just doing the drills on top of my hectic work schedule retarded recuperation after work. My body may not be ready but man what added power I felt from just the drills. I have definitely been half hitting at best. So far the best feeling I have gotten is with an old trick combo that has always been more than my busted arm has been able to handle. The way I've trained on adding spin is to late accelerate hard actively snapping the wrist suddenly stopping the wrist whip while yanking back with the shoulders and elbow. Getting the elbow more bent after having it straighter before the yank back. The timing is very late but I'm too early compared to the one inch short of the arm being straight pointed at the target that Feldy teaches saying: "It's huge". More tendon strengthening and muscle building for me during the winter time so that I may be whacking instead of full hitting the next summer

 

[racer93]

It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.

Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.

Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.

Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.

Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).

Not as FAR.... as FAST....

Im a big fan of flat line drive throws for judging distance. Plus and its a great way to develop accurate Golf D versus Max D. But i hear that throwing flat line drives is a Tennessee thing... so maybe im the only one.

I was out practicing "Pounding The Hammer" this evening, and I had a breakthrough. Im not sure i fully understand what Im doing so i need to get with Blake on it just to clarify. All I can say is that it was the most spin and speed i have ever put on a disc in my life. And after an hour of doing it, I can repeat it everytime.

Im excited, but im scared at the same time... my hand and finger tips are sore from how hard the disc was ripping out of my hand. It makes me wish i had been in an open field to see how far i could have gotten my drives.

 

[ManU]

so after going through the super secret technique thread and the incomplete secret technique thread and compiling the notes and drills into my own 6 pages of notes (thank you cut and paste)
I spent some time reading the drills, watching the videos and trying to pound the hammer and yo yo etc
I just now got back from an hour and a half in a field throwing leopards and donating a pint of blood to the mosquitos (with all the chemicals and pollutants in the world why aren't these freaking things extinct yet? frigging polar bears are drowning but the mosquito sucks on)

and I am happy to report that I also still SUCK
best throw 330...actually it might have been longer if it was on a proper line but I had great OAT (might have been the mild head wind), it still covered the length of a Canadian football field just not in a straight line from goal post to goal post

some of my standing throws trying to just pound the hammer were probably about 250
so is this a good result?
is it shit?

I just don't get it
obviously I must still strong arming it

so do some people just get it?
do some people just have what it takes to throw?

clearly I can't base this on just one field session and I need to go out and do more but this right royally sucks

maybe one of you 500 foot throwers can shed some light on this
cause right now I am not half hitting it...I doubt I am even a quarter hitting it

I expect that a 500 foot thrower or the person throwing a Roc 375 would be able to throw a leopard a lot further than 330 feet

anyway basic question how do you get spin and speed on a disc? (let me guess...do these drills)
when and how should you feel the weight of the disc cause I swear I can't feel it
how exactly do you stop your wrist?
is it an active stop?


urrgh
never write when you are still angry

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Something that I am having a lot of success with in addition to my 3 backhand hammer pounds before each throw is doing the right pec drill and pounding the hammer.

Just practicing that. Get out in the open and go from basket to basket, or tree to tree. Give yourself something to aim for and then perform the right pec drill and as you rotate open pound the hammer and let that disc fly.

If you are having trouble hitting the hammer while doing the right pec drill then some other aspect is off. If thats the case. do a stand still hammer pound. Find the feeling. Work it till it bleeds. Once you can pound the hammer without mentally focusing on pounding the hammer, try the right pec drill again. It should try and really blow open when you do it. I mean with some speed son! You should feel a real good weight shift. Just as if you were swinging a hammer using your disc golf grip.

 

[ManU]

practice does not make perfect
practice makes permanent
and if I keep practicing imperfect technique I am going to make it permanent
as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing, I am not sure where and when I should be facing, I am sure that I am not late accelerating (and I don't know how to fix it), I can't seem to grasp the final fling of the hammer head
I'm effing frustrated

going into my 3rd year of playing and still I can't get past 300 consistently :x

 

[Segovia1]

The easy answer would be to have a local who knows what they're doing take a look at your throw to see any obvious flaws. Another option would be posting a video and getting it broken down by somebody on this site. Would either of those be an option?

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

so after going through the super secret technique thread and the incomplete secret technique thread and compiling the notes and drills into my own 6 pages of notes (thank you cut and paste)
I spent some time reading the drills, watching the videos and trying to pound the hammer and yo yo etc
I just now got back from an hour and a half in a field throwing leopards

Congratulations! I applaude you on your effort. Limited are the players willing to fore go a round with friends to advance his ass kicking skills (that and its a great way to get extra money for new plastic. :twisted: )

and I am happy to report that I also still SUCK

sounds like a bad craigslist personals ad (JUST KIDDING, but really :lol: what's with being a Negative Nancy?)

best throw 330...actually it might have been longer if it was on a proper line but I had great OAT.

We all started somewhere. The fact is that if you are clearing 300 you are in the top 50% of most regular disc golf players distance. Did you also know 73% of the time, 1 out of every 4 statistics are made up on the spot? In all seriousness, when i started all i could throw was a stiff spike hyzer about 50 feet. Did I mention it was usually about 100 feet in the air? I hated windy days of disc golf. Fo' sho.

What makes you suspect off axis torque? It would help diagnose the problem.

some of my standing throws trying to just pound the hammer were probably about 250. so is this a good result? is it shit?

I think Blake deduced that most average males can throw a standstill 330 just using their arm. Not sure how these incomplete techniques are affecting that number now. Its still too early to tell i think. So 250 is just fine. You have room to improve, but I know you can. Your putting in the practice neccessary to do so.

I just don't get it. obviously I must still strong arming it

Think of the throw like pulling back on a spring door stop. (who hasnt flicked one to hear that spring sing). The spring at rest is you standing on the tee box. Your X-Step is you pulling back the spring. The spring stopping at its maximum amount of extension (or load) is you performing your reachback.

Now, when you release the spring, where does the first reaction happen? At the bottom of the spring (your feet). It is bearing the most load, where as the top of the spring (the disc during your reachback) has the least amount of load (tension, a.k.a. body tension)

Now understand that these actions should occur naturally if you dont force it, and you have set yourself up by performing the x-step properly. Its called kinetic linking. You are creating a transfer of motion that starts at the bottom of your body and slowly builds faster and stronger as it works its way up your body. Its like an ocean wave. Once you start the motion of transferring the energy, everything happens as a direct reaction to the previous action that just occured.It cant stop. It wont stop. It shouldnt be stopped. Go with the flow. Be smooth about it. Allow it to happen. Be as loose as a goose so you can pour on the juice.

The feet load the legs, legs load the hips. This causes the hips to drive open. As they rotate open it causes your torso to rotate your upper body/shoulders. By this point your arm should be trying to crack through like a whip.

Now, this is where the right pec drill comes in handy. As your arm is pulling through, you will find that you are set up perfectly for the right pec drill.

Perform right pec drill and pound the hammer.

Now, if you notice when you released the spring, it reached a point of maximum extension in the complete opposite direction before snapping back again. This would be the same as your release. your arm is extended out in front of you as the disc leaves your hand.

so do some people just get it?

yes. those people are usually called "people who practice".

do some people just have what it takes to throw?

yes. they usually have a strong athletic background. i.e. sports, martial arts, etc.

That is not to say that you cant pick it up. You just have to find your bent. Look up that word. Its a word from your grandfather's era. It basically means your natural talent. What comes natural to you. You might be a science nerd who can speak techno-babble with the best of them. Maybe you enjoy wildlife, or wood working, or whatever. Maybe it would help to visualize the objectives in a manner that is more familiar to you and your bent. Who knows. You might be a bouncer at the local Chuck-E-Cheese Pizza. If so, act like your trying to play the Whack-a-Mole game. Maybe you can play Pound The Mole instead of Pound The Hammer.

clearly I can't base this on just one field session

.

That's like trying to eat just one Pringle. It can't happen if you want the results.

maybe one of you 500 foot throwers can shed some light on this. I expect that a 500 foot thrower or the person throwing a Roc 375 would be able to throw a leopard a lot further than 330 feet.

I suck compared to Dan Beato, but here it goes. Longest drive this year: 585feet - 175 beat star boss - Anny Flex. Longest straight flat drive - 430feet - 175 star wraith. Longest drive with a midrange: 417feet (also happens to be my longest ace which i just hit on the 5th of this month) - 12X KC Pro Flat Top Roc (Don't even ask... Ching Rocs have nothing on these...)

Dan is really the one that needs to be spilling the beans. The word on the streets is this man can donkey punch a disc out past the 7's.

anyway basic question how do you get spin and speed on a disc? (let me guess...do these drills)

See above. Write it all down. Let the medicine take.

When and how should you feel the weight of the disc cause I swear I can't feel it.

WARNING: DISCLAIMER: By Performing These Drills, you agree to not hold me personally, or any person or person(s) on this forum, DiscGolfReview.com, or any person or person(s) who own/run/maintain the website.

Take a hammer out. Yes a hammer. Hold the handle near the bottom while using your disc golf grip. Now slowly (i said slowly. not slow, not medium, not fast) go through the motion of the hammer pound. i didnt say try to pound the hammer. Dont even try to throw it. Just go through the motion. Your shoulder should drive the elbow which drives the forearm which drives the wrist. Feel the weight of the hammer head as it pivots around your wrist.

Now, you should know what similar sensation you should "Feel". And trust me, when you do it, you can feel it and the weight of the disc as it trys to pivot out of your hand.

How exactly do you stop your wrist? is it an active stop?

You dont. You allow it to acheive maximum extension and stop on its own.

practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent. If I keep practicing imperfect technique I am going to make it permanent

Why do you have to practice the wrong technique? You are still in the "Learning" or "Concept" phase. You have yet to reach the AH-HA moment. Cut yourself some slack.

as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing, I am not sure where and when I should be facing, I am sure that I am not late accelerating (and I don't know how to fix it), I can't seem to grasp the final fling of the hammer head
I'm effing frustrated

Calm down. Deep breaths. I think i answered these things above.

going into my 3rd year of playing and still I can't get past 300 consistently

You will have a much easier time if you take a positive attitude towards this instead of buidling up a negative stigma around an aspect of your game that WILL cause you future issues and create more mental work to fix a part of your game that you are still trying to learn at this time. When you can shoot some hot 950+ rated rounds, then you can start kicking yourself.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

A little motivation for you:

Thomas Alva Edison Quotes:

■ Discontent is the first necessity of progress.

■ Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration.

■ Great ideas originate in the muscles.

■ I find my greatest pleasure, and so my reward, in the work that precedes what the world calls success. (meaning take pride in the fact that your working hard to acheive your goal)

■ I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

and if that hasnt motivated you yet, just keep this in mind next time your practicing:

■ I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.

Remember, its disc golf. You wouldn't be practicing if you didnt love the game and have fun playing it.

 

[masterbeato]

practice does not make perfect
as it stands right now I am not sure of my body positions and timing,

timing is the hardest thing to learn, when you have perfect timing it is more superior than body positions.

this drill teaches you timing!

 

[Blake_T1]

ManU:

are you able to feel it during the drills? if no, you are doing the drills wrong.

if you are able to feel it during the drills but not during the throw, then you aren't throwing like the drills.

(not directed directly at you, but people in general here that might be struggling
if you count the # of hours i've spent in fields working with players attempting to get them to do something different than their normal throw, you'd get a number that epitomizes why i don't do lessons anymore with the general public. honestly, these drills are about as easy as it's going to get. i doubt i could find a way to simplify them even more.

getting something from the drills is the responsibility of the thrower. the reason i developed the hammer pound over what's already been done like the towel drill, is that i find like 1 in 30 people can actually translate what they learn from the towel drill back into their throw. with the hammer pound, this becomes the throw and you rebuild around that foundation.

basically, you have to shed the bad mechanics and rebuild with good ones. ditching the bad is harder for some people than others.

(and back to you
if you aren't getting 300' consistently, i'd say 250' is about what to expect without having a breakthrough. 250/300 = 83.3%. if you can throw 83.3% of your normal distance using a 16" pound motion and no extra body forces, i'd say that's fairly efficient (meaning a run up, reach back, shoulder turn, etc. = 16.7% of your power).

practice does make permanent. what you are battling against is previous notions of the throw. as i said before i unveiled it, this is simply a rethinking of the throw. you have to in turn, drop your old thoughts about throwing and try to form new thoughts about what the throw is. the feedback i have gotten so far is that this is EXTREMELY different from what most people are accustomed to feeling during their throw.

most have had some sort of light bulb click, either in regards to the sidearm, overhand, backhand, or all three (many were able to build upon their previous sidearm throw to translate it to backhand, etc.) but in nearly all cases, the first successes were met with a few days/weeks of crappy throwing. the previous muscle memory causes relapses that leads to half-old and half-new throws. this usually sucks. when you get a feel that is new/foreign to you but feels strong, remember it.

(back to everyone
remember that i wrote a while back that it's generally accepted in most sports that it takes 20,000 reps of a new motion to build muscle memory. until you clear that hurdle you will likely relapse into the old or a halfway point.

 

[Banjar]

Just a quick conceptual question for the backhand hammer pounding..

the nail I am pounding with my backhand is where exactly? is the nail "pointing" at my desired target or perpendicullar to it?

 

[Blake_T1]

there's no real nail backhand, considering that you would never pound a hammer that way and there isn't really a conceptual "point of contact" for the nail and hammer-head that makes enough sense to have me recommend trying that.

the backhand hammer pound is mainly meant to replicate the weight shift and timing that is easier to achieve sidearm and then mirroring the other direction. i wrote about finding the point of release as well and that is more critical than any virtual nail. if you want to think of the point of release as being where the nail is, you are welcome to but imo, it makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

if you're able to feel the weight of the hammer backhand, you're pretty much there.

 

[masterbeato]

there's no real nail backhand, considering that you would never pound a hammer that way and there isn't really a conceptual "point of contact" for the nail and hammer-head that makes enough sense to have me recommend trying that.

the backhand hammer pound is mainly meant to replicate the weight shift and timing that is easier to achieve sidearm and then mirroring the other direction. i wrote about finding the point of release as well and that is more critical than any virtual nail. if you want to think of the point of release as being where the nail is, you are welcome to but imo, it makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

if you're able to feel the weight of the hammer backhand, you're pretty much there.

word!

 

[josser]

Forgive the following rambling. It is meant to let ManU know that there are others that are also not succeeding despite putting in the effort. And to remind those that are succeeding that the equivalent of "repeating things only louder" is often not getting through (but I still honestly and truly appreciate the time and effort that you all put in to help).


ManU I feel you. I am in a similar boat to you. I can sort out when I completely don't do a certain thing properly, like I purposely tensed me arm for the entire hammer pound so that I could get a feel for not properly relaxing my arm. But once I get beyond halfway there I have no idea or feel for how well I am doing it beyond "not a complete disaster". And much like you, I don't want to put in a bunch of practice time getting it half right because I don't want to spend the next year unlearning the half I did wrong (see below for previous experience following this path).

This is the big difference between practice and what people in education circles call effortful practice. Effortful practice is all about practicing something that pushes just beyond your current comfort zone in a way which will lead to improvement. But this sort of practice requires some sort of meta-understanding. For a brain task, it is metacognition, which is being able to think about your own thinking. For a physical task, it probably has a name that I don't know, but it is basically being able to feel/understand quite precisely how well you are performing a certain physical objective (which usually goes hand in hand as coming from a strong athletic background). I don't have this meta-feel. It's terrible black and white for me. I can tell that I am either doing it in a god-awful way or that I am doing it somewhere on the 50-100% correct spectrum, but I usually have no idea where in the 50-100% other than judging from the results. I often can't tell the difference between my throws that go 300' and those that go 350' except that one lands further away.

Non-effortful practice is trying to practice throws without meta-feel and it is the same as just going to the field and throwing as hard as you can over and over and hoping that it eventually will get you more distance. In my case it taught me to be fantastic at strong-arming discs all the way out to 250' and then I spent the last year trying to unlearn all those awful habits and simply break 275' consistently. ManU, I feel your pain.

So Blake has a reasonably idiot-proof system, but I went and built a better idiot. I am trying hard to see if what I am doing is similar to the videos, which is not the exact point of the videos. I try to use my 50% correct hammer pound in the field and get results that are not terrible but nowhere near the distances that Blake says should be easily achievable.

ManU and I are the folks that would benefit the most from live coaches. Somebody who can take the place of our lack of meta-feel and watch us do something 10 times and point out when we are doing it OK and when we are doing it quite well in real time. With that sort of help folks like me have a chance of being able to turn that black and white into shades of gray. And tell the difference between 60% correct and 80% correct.


Anyway, thank you to everybody that patiently answers questions and does their best to help. It is very much appreciated. If you can put a Blake drill into practice that same day, remember that we non-meta-feel types are often struggling the most with shades of gray.

 

[Blake_T1]

josser:

i can understand the frustration but at the same time, there isn't much anyone can do to train someone to know if they are doing it right or wrong by a reason other than the result. if you will gain anything from it, it will be from trial and error, learning what you can along the way.

the questions that both of you are asking are making it clear to me that you are off the correct path in both body and mind. it's not just a failure of the body to execute the motion, if you don't notice the physical cues associated with a success or failure, it is also a problem in the mind. also, it's a problem in the mind if you can't shed preconceived notions of the motion to just rely on your senses to feel it.

basically, if you can't build a feel for it, having a coach there wouldn't amount to much, and from my experiences with most players, if i stand there and tell them if they are doing it right or not, i basically got a rep for a while as being a very negative teacher and person because i was working with a few people where i did that with them. e.g. across 50 throws giving them 1 thing to focus on i'd basically say "yep" or "nope" if they did it right or wrong. if i told them to keep the disc tight to their body during the pull and they did it wrong 45 out of 50 throws, it was a lot of "nopes."

these drills is meant to eliminate the need for meta-understanding. it's a foreign idea to me to not know if something was better or worse. i can say that some of my throws where i've hit it the hardest have not been my longest throws (usually i didn't hit the angles correctly but absolutely slammed the timing and i over-turned it). feeling stronger is better than feeling weaker. the goal is to do things that make it feel stronger.

timing improvements don't require flight improvements because there's so many more variables to compensate for in that. it's also not as simple as like, learning to pound a nail into a board with 1 swing since there isn't the obvious immediate feedback of the nail being pounded all the way in or not. at the same time, most people should be better at pounding in said nails with 1 swing after 200 tries than during their first 10 and that probably doesn't require understanding of the mechanics of swinging a hammer (it can be built by feel). similarly, if you do it 50% correct and keep working on making it stronger, you should be more like 60% then 70% then 80% and so forth.

back when i was trying to learn the bent elbow throw in 2002 i went out every day for 23 days and threw until my hand would bleed and then throw 75 more throws. this was anywhere in the 150-500 throws per day range. i didn't know wtf i was searching for but i kept trying until it clicked. the key was doing something slightly different after each failure in order to get a different feel and hopefully success. when it finally clicked i went out for 23 more days in a row but threw twice as many throws as before i figured it out since it was now fun instead of frustrating.

build up. do it differently. feel the difference, if it's better, try to duplicate it, if it's worse, change it up. when you can duplicate better, refine it and try to make it even better.

why i keep repeating myself is because the wrong questions are getting asked. the wrong questions imply a mindset that is far removed from the "easy" one.

 

[racer93]

It's a fun thing to watch TBs go that far because it just takes them soooooo long to do it.

Just wait until you start getting your Teebirds/slower plastic out there just as fast everyone elses Boss/Destroyers.

Yeah, I'm able to put TBs out to almost 500' (490-something).

Not as FAR.... as FAST....

Im a big fan of flat line drive throws for judging distance. Plus and its a great way to develop accurate Golf D versus Max D. But i hear that throwing flat line drives is a Tennessee thing... so maybe im the only one.

I was out practicing "Pounding The Hammer" this evening, and I had a breakthrough. Im not sure i fully understand what Im doing so i need to get with Blake on it just to clarify. All I can say is that it was the most spin and speed i have ever put on a disc in my life. And after an hour of doing it, I can repeat it everytime.

Im excited, but im scared at the same time... my hand and finger tips are sore from how hard the disc was ripping out of my hand. It makes me wish i had been in an open field to see how far i could have gotten my drives.

I throw almost all of my drives as line drives. I don't throw "distance throws", per se. Almost all of my throws are concentrated in one area, not sprayed out. It's like that with TBs, Bosses, and pretty much anything I throw. I've just never learned to "let go" and throw as hard as I could without looking at where I'm throwing it. Other people can, I just can't. Call me a control freak or whatever...

So, it must be a KY thing, too. Since KY and TN are close, we'll call it one and the same!

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

The Dirty South Special

 

[JR]

Hey I'm up north and still throw flat shots when possible.