The Twitch of the Hips

[seedlings]

Here's one way to feel rotation from leg extension:

Stand with feet about shoulder width apart and pointed forward, knees and hips slightly flexed/bent, torso centered. Basically a quarter- to half-squat, athletic position. Keeping weight centered, extend one leg while keeping the other leg bent in the same manner as the starting position. Due to the extension of the leg, the hips will rotate in that direction. Remember to keep weight centered; one can prevent rotation but must then tip in the direction of the flexed leg.

Another illustration for the DG swing would be to get into a comfortable athletic stance, lift your lead leg off of the ground, then, rotate your hips around the lead leg while it is off the ground. This is demonstrates how simple it is to rotate the hips before planting that lead leg. Wait- I mean how impossible it is.

 

[RowingBoats]

Another illustration for the DG swing would be to get into a comfortable athletic stance, lift your lead leg off of the ground, then, rotate your hips around the lead leg while it is off the ground. This is demonstrates how simple it is to rotate the hips before planting that lead leg. Wait- I mean how impossible it is.

Lol, I'm glad you edited this because I was seriously stretching my brain to understand.

 

[sidewinder22]

So you admit his hip is starting to turn?

As I've said several times before. It is not the intention though, is it?

"This is the FEEL that you want to cultivate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=4m15s

 

[sidewinder22]

I was doing your drills as a way to show the folly of them.

Please show me these drills you speak of. Looks like you created your own drill, the Topsy Turvey Drill.

 

[RoDeO]

Do you need the whole foot completely flat on the ground to make an athletic move? When a running back cuts and pushes off the ground to change direction, does their whole foot have to be firmly flat on the ground? When a skier makes a quick turn, do they have to have the entire ski flat on the snow surface? When a hockey player or ice skater makes a move, do they have to have the entire blade flat on the ice?

Are we not talking about dynamic movement?

The debate is whether the hips rotate before or after brace isnt it? Just because the toe or part of the foot is touching ground doesn't mean they are bracing. There is a transition phase of weight going from rear to front and it is smooth and dynamic. The hips need to be rotating into strong brace. The power acceleration phase doesn't happen until that strong brace because your core muscles need something to brace against. At that moment where strong brace occurs the disc should either be in the power pocket position or almost in that position from reachback. Also at that moment you should have maximum hip to shoulder separation angles. That is the load that powerfully unwind the upper body or pulls it through into release. If you didn't start turning the hios until strong brace there is or can be no lag which provides the necessary power. Why? Because the hips continue to rotate all the way through weight transition. If one were to delay that until strong brace there is no lag time because the upper body starts to turn open at that point.

 

[RoDeO]

Please show me these drills you speak of. Looks like you created your own drill, the Topsy Turvey Drill.

Regardless of how ridiculous I looked (it wasn't a drill BTW) the whole point was to see if driving laterally created hip rotation. Who cares what my upper body was or wasnt doing, the hips weren't rotating. You of all people knows that you don't get hip rotation just from moving laterally.

 

[RoDeO]

As I've said several times before. It is not the intention though, is it?

"This is the FEEL that you want to cultivate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-e1NXR6mk&t=4m15s

Whether it's intention or not, the fact is that the hips start to rotate just before brace not after brace.

 

[sidewinder22]

Regardless of how ridiculous I looked (it wasn't a drill BTW) the whole point was to see if driving laterally created hip rotation. Who cares what my upper body was or wasnt doing, the hips weren't rotating. You of all people knows that you don't get hip rotation just from moving laterally.

It did create hip rotation even though you drove more upward than lateral. You are using all your might trying to resist that hip rotation as your arms counter the rotation, just like walking, instead of committing to the swing.

Your rear femur/knee starts pointed away from target and ends up pointed at camera. Pelvis is closed taking off rear leg and open landing on front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

When discussing levers, do you have any solid evidence that lever length doesn't matter? I'm talking about evidence that is based in physics, biomechanics, etc. (not personal beliefs or small sample size anecdotes)

The equation v=2piRF seems to say that longer levers would lead to greater velocity. Is that something you can speak to?

The texts/studies I linked above: can you refute them legitimately?

Also still waiting on your answers to these questions regarding levers:

Why is it easier to pry something with a longer bar?

Why is it easier to turn a nut/bolt with a longer wrench?

"This study shows that body height, body weight, hand length and arm span positively influence to BTV(Ball Throwing Velocity) during the 3-step running throw in team handball."
https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1118741.pdf

 

[RoDeO]

It did create hip rotation even though you drove more upward than lateral. You are using all your might trying to resist that hip rotation as your arms counter the rotation, just like walking, instead of committing to the swing.

Your rear femur/knee starts pointed away from target and ends up pointed at camera. Pelvis is closed taking off rear leg and open landing on front leg.

I wasn't resisting no rotation. It's impossible to resist something that isn't present. I intentionally didn't try to initiate hip rotation in my shift to see if coming into the brace were to cause a rotation. None was present at all. I did it again and same result

https://youtu.be/ZwaFNtjvOtE

 

[sidewinder22]

I wasn't resisting no rotation. It's impossible to resist something that isn't present. I intentionally didn't try to initiate hip rotation in my shift to see if coming into the brace were to cause a rotation. None was present at all. I did it again and same result

https://youtu.be/ZwaFNtjvOtE

Still rotating.

 

[RoDeO]

Still rotating.

Umm....no.

 

[RoDeO]

Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

 

[SaROCaM]

The debate is whether the hips rotate before or after brace isnt it? Just because the toe or part of the foot is touching ground doesn't mean they are bracing. There is a transition phase of weight going from rear to front and it is smooth and dynamic. The hips need to be rotating into strong brace. The power acceleration phase doesn't happen until that strong brace because your core muscles need something to brace against. At that moment where strong brace occurs the disc should either be in the power pocket position or almost in that position from reachback. Also at that moment you should have maximum hip to shoulder separation angles. That is the load that powerfully unwind the upper body or pulls it through into release. If you didn't start turning the hios until strong brace there is or can be no lag which provides the necessary power. Why? Because the hips continue to rotate all the way through weight transition. If one were to delay that until strong brace there is no lag time because the upper body starts to turn open at that point.

It isn't clear that you know what bracing is. Anyone wanna sort this out?

From what I have seen, your theory of sequencing is supported by your opinion and subjective conclusions from observations you made.

The other theory is supported by data from biomechanics researchers and technology that measures body positions and movement in real time. Also people who either throw 500'+ and/or have coached people to throw better and/or have relevant experience/knowledge seem to disagree regularly with what you say.

If you can point to research, electronic measurement, and/or some other independent sources to support your position, that would be helpful.

I'm not 100% saying that you are wrong, just that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

 

[RandyC]

Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

I don´t think anyone has said that there is no rotation in your hips. It is a dynamic movement. What has been said is that you do not rotate from your rear leg it is a completely different animal. You are advocating rotation of the rear leg as a power source and that is not how you throw nor create power. The rotator muscles in your hip are small and weak compared to abduction adduction which uses glutes and hamstrings.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Funny that I show video of disc golfers actually rotating and you say no rotation and you see video of me with no rotation and say I'm rotating. That's irony.

When did he say that discgolfers don't rotate? Have you listened to anything in the past month I swear to god

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

 

[RoDeO]

It isn't clear that you know what bracing is. Anyone wanna sort this out?

From what I have seen, your theory of sequencing is supported by your opinion and subjective conclusions from observations you made.

The other theory is supported by data from biomechanics researchers and technology that measures body positions and movement in real time. Also people who either throw 500'+ and/or have coached people to throw better and/or have relevant experience/knowledge seem to disagree regularly with what you say.

If you can point to research, electronic measurement, and/or some other independent sources to support your position, that would be helpful.

I'm not 100% saying that you are wrong, just that the evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

Bracing is when your lead foot braces your weight. There is a strong brace moment when all of your weight has maximum pressure under your foot. Some players have a rather abrupt strong brace like Paige Pierce where you see more pressure and leg straightening and thus less lateral weight follow through and others more smooth and and less abrupt where there is less pressure and a bent leg and more lateral weight follow through like Paul Mcbeth.

Look at the video evidence. Video don't lie. I wished I knew how to capture a stillframe from video be cause I could then post pictures of top pros all in that same position of when their foot braces in that strong brace (where all the weight is firmly on the lead leg) and their hips have all substantially turned towards open and the shoulders are still facing rearward.

 

[RoDeO]

I don´t think anyone has said that there is no rotation in your hips. It is a dynamic movement. What has been said is that you do not rotate from your rear leg it is a completely different animal. You are advocating rotation of the rear leg as a power source and that is not how you throw nor create power. The rotator muscles in your hip are small and weak compared to abduction adduction which uses glutes and hamstrings.

Whichever muscle groups are involved is a topic for discussion on its own. The important part is that the rotation of the hips begin just before the brace. This is important because if a player is led to believe that no rotation at all happens until brace then they have troubles learning how to rotate and get the hips involved and the right sequencing invloved. This was simply proven by your one leg throw. In that throw your hip never leads rotation like it should. It's also the reason why you can't balance solely on your front leg and swing a bat with power. The hip rotation is what leads the rotation and it must be initiated before the weight shift occurs.

 

[bsammons]

Rodeo, I'm gonna put this as politely as I can.

You're incorrect in your assessment of the throw.
I posted the free body diagram and written up assessment of the throw and it was completely ignored.
Nobody is "staying with you", nobody is waiting to see your idea or drill that's going to radically change perspectives of the throw.
We aren't being arrogant, we aren't being snobby. Any time we're presented with information and evidence that points contrary to our beliefs we are the first to embrace it.
If you want to discuss the throw I will happily direct message you and am open to hearing every bit of the theory you have of biomechanics. In fact I'll even FaceTime you if you so like. But please, for the sake of this entire sub forum. Look at the evidence and look at the physics and try to reason with the countless people who have selflessly tried to point you in the right direction.
-bsammons

 

[SaROCaM]

Bracing is when your lead foot braces your weight. There is a strong brace moment when all of your weight has maximum pressure under your foot. Some players have a rather abrupt strong brace like Paige Pierce where you see more pressure and leg straightening and thus less lateral weight follow through and others more smooth and and less abrupt where there is less pressure and a bent leg and more lateral weight follow through like Paul Mcbeth.

Look at the video evidence. Video don't lie. I wished I knew how to capture a stillframe from video be cause I could then post pictures of top pros all in that same position of when their foot braces in that strong brace (where all the weight is firmly on the lead leg) and their hips have all substantially turned towards open and the shoulders are still facing rearward.

So you're saying bracing has to do with weight? I was under the impression that bracing has to do with momentum. Anyone else care to speak to this?

Also I still think that "strong brace" is a strange construct. You hear people say "brace yourself," not "strong brace yourself." You hear "brace for impact," not "strong brace for impact."

Not sure a still frame would help since it isn't clear whether you were able to make a GIF that stopped at the correct point.