ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

[Jaani]

I think most people have the mind set, that everybody else follows pretty much the same life as they, and talk about the same things and follow the same news.

Especially in closed communities like this forum for enthusiasts or a disc golf course or a club, people tend to believe everyone knows everything, because it's their universe. Some genuinely believe, that if they have talked about a subject on this forum or have made a video about it 10 years ago (for the forum members), it should be common knowledge and therefore correctly cited whenever it's talked about. It is my universe after all, and everyone is interested in ME.

I see this everywhere, not only in coaching community. That being said, I honestly don't have a clue about what most coaches talk about on their videos, and I rarely follow this forum either. (I'm here only because I saw my views came from here.)

That is why I get somewhat annoyed when people assume their work is the hot topic since 10 years ago, and I maliciously steal their work. Truth is, I didn't even know they existed.

Especially content creators (I worked as a journalist and still make my money publishing stuff) think everybody reads them, have loads of opinions about them and talk about their work. Truth is, hardly anyone cares that much; people check the video, get the idea (or not), and continue their life without paying much attention to who's behind the creation. But we think we're so important...

I get it, we all want to be remembered as the biggest name in disc golf coaching. Oh, I was the guy who first introduced this and this drill, and now everyone ows me a big thank you. I'm sure every single town has the guy "who brought the sport to city" or "runs the most events" or was the "first to ace hole 6" and so on, and so on. But does anyone care? No. And will anyone care if we make more noise about our importance? Even less. It's been proven time and time again, that those who crave respect get it less. Craving for recognition comes from ego. Wanting to be someone special.

I for one, has been accused of not only stealing the methods and drills, but the words used to describe motions and my very Youtube name, that includes the apparently copyrighted word Spin. You read it right, I stole Spin. That is where DG Coaching is now, I've had enough of arguing with people who "have been talking about this for years" and stacks their video links to comments when all we want to do is help others learn.

So, feel free to "steal my concepts" and copy my sentences, if you feel like someone with broken english and bad wording is worth your time and efforts. I would be honored if something I have taught makes it to someone's video. Knowledge is something that exists, not in anyone's mind, but everywhere, and is only passed on by individuals. It's not to be owned, rented or concealed, but to spread freely to those who may need it.

I couldn't care less about recognition or who said it first as long as people who I share the same passion of tossing discs get to enjoy the sensation of Heureka a bit more often.

Let's get to work.
Good luck!

 

[Brychanus]

Thought of you @Kennets, maybe interesting stuff here for others too, esp. with any pre-existing knee/hip/mobility issues or the need to "wake up" dem adductors:



A little more in the context of baseball, quick & good:

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think we've got people like Chris Taylor and Joonas Merela getting legitimate data saying the scapula retracts first and the throw is more of a brute force "pull" versus lag initiated. Forward engineering probably wouldn't come to this conclusion. I could be wrong of course.

Isn't this one of the simplest first thoughts whether forward or reverse engineering? Pull harder to muscle power into it which would result in some scapular retraction.

Of course most people tend to default to rounding early on but you can still easily feel like you are pulling during that rounding arm arc.

 

[Brychanus]

Isn't this one of the simplest first thoughts whether forward or reverse engineering? Pull harder to muscle power into it which would result in some scapular retraction.

Of course most people tend to default to rounding early on but you can still easily feel like you are pulling during that rounding arm arc.

In general big difference between doing what is described in sequence and balance vs. getting nothing from momentum or the ground and then trying to "yank" the disc through the shoulder.

IMHO you see variation in the exact sequence and related postures all the way up to the top. I've talked to Josh before about the "swing-pull continuum" and some of the implications.

Specific case examples are interesting. Josh and I both found that messing around with Sidewinder style doorframe drills very instructive in that case.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

Oof, Y'all talk alot... Just read / skimmed this whole post and I'll add my thoughts too.

First off, I think we are all doing great! We are all here, talking, and despite some ruffled feathers, no one is actively being mean. I call that a win.

I think there is alot of ego in the coaching world in general, exp something as new and wild west-y as disc golf is. We are all here because we are curious, observant, smart folks, and alot of us have a desire to help others. That means we all have a stake and some pride in the game...

Things I really appreciate here:
Brychanus, as always. There was one post in particular early on where he very clearly made an effort to frame the whole post. It started with a declaration of positive intent, contained useful clearly though out content, and closed with another positive intention. I think that is an excellent example and we could all do a bit more of that, esp when tensions get a bit high.

Thanks Brychanus, as always.

Josh: I really appreciate your posts in this thread too. Totally agree. I think your view that we all share knowledge of how to move our bodies and a desire for that knowledge to be shared should take precedence over any ownership. I do feel we should still make an effort to give credit though, how I do that personally is I try to remember to mention who showed me a particular idea or drill when it seems relevant (because who did what first doesn't really matter, movement is movement, no one owns hip adductor activation). Eventually given enough time that need to give credit wears off and the idea morphs enough that I feel it kinda becomes my own thing, at which point my personal need to give some credit to someone else rolls off a little.

SW and Jaani: I totally see both sides here. I do feel that you both are stuck being a bit reactive, and thats fine, but I don't really see much reason to stay in a high tension state... I hope we can get past this and get along better. You are both very valuable to the DG coaching as a whole and everything is better when everyone is getting along and doesn't feel slighted or misrepresented.

Jaani: I think you are reading SW's intent wrong, understandably. Maybe try getting curious rather than getting reactive? (something I am always working on too, its not easy!).

SW: You have made similar comments on my videos. Basically 'I covered this in X video'. Totally true. But it still kinda reads as dismissive.

Thought experiment: What if we took a page from Brychanus and framed that comment the way he framed his post:

Addition: 'I agree with this'
Content: "I covered this idea in video X"

Then the reactivity just goes away right? Because you took the time to explain your intent rather than just stating facts.

I understand now that is likely what you meant when you commented on my video. But I didn't read it like that at first! And that makes it harder to engage with you as a valuable resource. I know you have a ton of knowledge, but if we can't get along then what you know doesn't help me...

Ok that out of the way, Movement stuff!

SW said in this thread: "I'm talking about creating Internal Torque throughout the body (which would include hip adduction) that puts you more upright and creates a very sudden pressure shift. Momentum alone won't do that."

That is a key take away for me. And my comment on the YT video to Jaani is, I think, about the same idea... Hip adduction in the rear leg helps drive the weight shift intentionally into the brace foot (and it makes the shift more sudden, less 'dumpy'). Hip adduction in the front leg an instant later, helps catch that weight shift intentionally and turn it into usable ground force.

This is what Trent was on to with his 'magic position'. Knees in during weight shift is another way to cue hip adduction in my mind. Active movement off the rear leg (Drivey or not...) in that the adductor is driving the knee in rather than the body weight topping off an inactive knee... and active movement in the front leg, with the same idea in reverse, to establish meaningful ground contact and contain forward momentum. And idea that Josh recently had built in to his dynamic hop and balance drill in a recent vid about bracing drills. Very cool, very accessible drill.

And I really think that actively driving the rear leg and pulling it in to where is it in line with the tilted axis of rotation accelerates the rotation. Same idea as getting the off arm tucked in with the rotation, Re: iceskater spinny move. Its the same concept, you are just pulling your rear leg in towards the center of the rotation to cause more rotational acceleration.

The part of hip adduction that I find most interesting, which I believe Brychanus mentioned here, is that it can, if timed right, help 'firm up' the lowed body brace as a whole. To me that instant of stillness and having a semi-rigid 'frame' built out of your lower body (if only for an instant), with a rear leg counterweight that is actively being squeezed into position (by adduction) can and does firm up the brace. If that firming up happens (what feels like) just before the hit, then the low body getting firm can give the spine and shoulders a more stable platform to work from (more power) AND locking the lower body down feels like it forces the lower bodies momentum up the chain where it can be turned into more late acceleration.

It feels the same as the preloaded tricep activation that comes from doing Jaani's 'cook the spaghetti' drill. But now the preload is in the hip adductors rather than the tricep. In Spaghetti we load the tricep before we 'need to' so it can fire more completely. In Thighmaster we load the adductors early so they can actively accelerate into position and increase torque on the way in while increasing stability once the rear leg CW and the brace get 'in place'.

Interesting that Jaani said he feels this adduction mostly in the front leg. I have cued it mostly as a back leg thing. But technically, the way adductors work is as a pair, right? So in both my case and Jaani's case both adductors are firing and we could cue them as a pair??

Thanks y'all apprecaite the conversation!

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks Brychanus, as always.

YW, and I hope people read what you wrote.

Fundamentally all I try to do is lead with curiosity and a learner's mindset. I just assume I am the dumbest person in every room. I have the benefit of being fairly new to DG and kind of quietly lurking at all times.

In my main job if a have a student who isn't getting something or disagrees with me, the first thing I do is ask them why. I do my best to explain what I thought to figure out where the disagreement is. If I feel myself getting defensive in any way, I just ask more questions until I understand where they are coming from.

I do the same with my colleagues, etc. It doesn't always work but it usually does and I end up less upset more days than not.

Thank you for your tone here, if you don't mind I'll draw out a couple of mechanics things while we are here.

Ok that out of the way, Movement stuff!

Numbered your next ones for ease:

1. SW said in this thread: "I'm talking about creating Internal Torque throughout the body (which would include hip adduction) that puts you more upright and creates a very sudden pressure shift. Momentum alone won't do that." That is a key take away for me. And my comment on the YT video to Jaani is, I think, about the same idea... Hip adduction in the rear leg helps drive the weight shift intentionally into the brace foot (and it makes the shift more sudden, less 'dumpy'). Hip adduction in the front leg an instant later, helps catch that weight shift intentionally and turn it into usable ground force.

This is what Trent was on to with his 'magic position'. Knees in during weight shift is another way to cue hip adduction in my mind. Active movement off the rear leg (Drivey or not...) in that the adductor is driving the knee in rather than the body weight topping off an inactive knee... and active movement in the front leg, with the same idea in reverse, to establish meaningful ground contact and contain forward momentum. And idea that Josh recently had built in to his dynamic hop and balance drill in a recent vid about bracing drills. Very cool, very accessible drill.

2. And I really think that actively driving the rear leg and pulling it in to where is it in line with the tilted axis of rotation accelerates the rotation. Same idea as getting the off arm tucked in with the rotation, Re: iceskater spinny move. Its the same concept, you are just pulling your rear leg in towards the center of the rotation to cause more rotational acceleration.

The part of hip adduction that I find most interesting, which I believe Brychanus mentioned here, is that it can, if timed right, help 'firm up' the lowed body brace as a whole. To me that instant of stillness and having a semi-rigid 'frame' built out of your lower body (if only for an instant), with a rear leg counterweight that is actively being squeezed into position (by adduction) can and does firm up the brace. If that firming up happens (what feels like) just before the hit, then the low body getting firm can give the spine and shoulders a more stable platform to work from (more power) AND locking the lower body down feels like it forces the lower bodies momentum up the chain where it can be turned into more late acceleration.

It feels the same as the preloaded tricep activation that comes from doing Jaani's 'cook the spaghetti' drill. But now the preload is in the hip adductors rather than the tricep. In Spaghetti we load the tricep before we 'need to' so it can fire more completely. In Thighmaster we load the adductors early so they can actively accelerate into position and increase torque on the way in while increasing stability once the rear leg CW and the brace get 'in place'.

Interesting that Jaani said he feels this adduction mostly in the front leg. I have cued it mostly as a back leg thing. But technically, the way adductors work is as a pair, right? So in both my case and Jaani's case both adductors are firing and we could cue them as a pair??

Thanks y'all apprecaite the conversation!

1.
-Internal Torque across the body - yes. I think a lot of less athletic people have trouble distinguishing "good" torques (athleticism) from "bad" torques (twisting, shearing forces on muscles, bones, and joints).

-I can always get quibbly with individual words, but I take your point about the move off the rear side into the weight shift & suddenness. I had talked to Josh about his bracing concepts before, and we discussed what I think we were both ok calling "athletic resistance" moving back and forth. That's also what "riding the bull" ideally is whether people interpret it that way or not. I have been through phases of both dumpy and sudden "quick" shifts and the compressive load and "good" torque into the rear leg in the backswing ideally involves resistance/releasing of load in the hip adductors. I would need someone smarter than me to show a kinetic phase diagram or something, but that is how I tended to simplify it. I also think like most things in weight shifting, you need to do it in good balance like walking or running and it is very sensitive to getting spoiled if the person isn't used to doing it already. That's basically what I thought Jaani Thighmaster and Seabas had in common in Post 2 in this thread. I think they emphasize it somewhat differently but I am still not clear on whether it is a "distinction without a difference" in the end, mechanically, because it turned into some kind of fight rather than a discussion, unfortunately. I also don't think that is trivial that the instructors themselves have very different bodies - seabas uses more verticality and the adduction and counterbalance look different if you don't have elite hip mobility. Jaani looks incredibly nimble and flexible any time I see him move and well-conditioned for throwing in general. I think (know) seabas initially came from a form development framework that encoded balance differently than Jaani. Maybe they're converging in the same direction over time, I'll leave it there for now.

-Last, I would be wary of overemphasizing anything, but especially small interior muscles like adductors. They clearly play a role. But I'm often worried that some people are going to start "actively" trying to "squeeze the knees" at all costs, which reminds me of asymmetries in valgus knees. Intuitively, just look at the size of the muscle groups. Adductors are not tiny, but quads and glutes are generally the "workhorse" muscles, maybe calves next, followed by things like adductors, abductors, and hammies. Walking or other athletic moves I've tried to understand seem to work through phases that load and unload all of these things, usually putting the strongest muscles in the right places for the strongest/lowest effort/safest sequences. Anecdotally at my peak weight training when I was leg pressing hundreds of pounds, the adductors were I think doing around 200. That maybe kind of checks out more generally. Just food for thought.

2.
-Yeah, I think I get the drift here (did you catch my weight shift joke?). The thing I am very sensitive to because I am basically becoming a balance theorist at bottom is that some people are using the hip adduction as a compensation for being off balance and "catching" balance (not good), whereas others are using it as a means for being on balance and fully integrated like other locomotion. I intuitively got the point of this in dance but it took Sidewinder to give me any chance to understand the connection in disc golf. I have the hypothesis that if you took 10 different instructors and asked them to draw a balance line from head to toe throughout different phases of the move, they would not agree. That's a problem IMHO because it means people have different fundamental theories to one extent or another.

-Rear leg/front leg stuff: I suppose in general I mentally simplified hip adduction as equal + opposite and reciprocal from rear leg to front leg, just like walking. Though now I do imagine/wonder that given that we are moving more sideways the phases and loads probably look different in a backhand, especially when the plant leg is taking the brunt of a stop/redirect/etc. role in the force transmission. Another thing I wouldn't be shocked to learn differs somewhat across players and forms, just a guess.

-Brace firmness - I mean, this has to at least be a transient thing, right? Just maybe the degree of muscle loading differs in the Backhand direction relative to pitching. I too also had a too-soft plant leg process/collapsing at the hip and knee at one point, and the same issue on the rear side. It's been a combination of drills (for me probably thousands of Hershyzers), throwing, exercises, etc. to just get my legs in a position to start to do some of this stuff myself. I really think we just need to be talking more about body conditioning and health in general since a significant proportion of players are probably underconditioned for one reason or another (IMHO).

Anyway, lmk. Glad you're here dude.

 

[itlnstln]

Musing a little here, but sometimes I wonder about how much this minutae (sorry if that sound negative, not intentional) is particularly useful to focus on. I was working on some footwork stuff this weekend where my plant step is a little too long and my balance is behind my brace. Once I started shortening up that last step, all the back leg counterbalance, Thighmaster, etc. stuff "just works." I have to imagine this is why SW contextualizes this stuff in larger movements. To be balanced on your plant leg you HAVE to pull your back leg in and behind to counter. Ergo, if you work on being balanced on your front leg (which is the important part), these other things are more "checkboxes" vs. actual motions to work on and drill.

If you do something as simple as stand on one leg, to stay balanced, you'll notice you bend over slightly and the opposite leg kicks back slightly. If you can't balance on one leg, it's more important (in my mind) to work on that, not leaning over or kicking the opposite leg back, specifically.

I know I come at this with a fairly athletic, throwing sports background, so I don't want to sound like I'm poo-pooing stuff like the Thighmaster drill, I just wonder if it might be more helpful to do, say, the one-leg drill and have "checkboxes" to note specifics where people might be having issues with the larger movement.

Hopefully, all that rambling makes sense

 

[Brychanus]

I've started to become fond of getting people to work on the biggest motions possible that require balance to work correctly. Then I try to remove "blocks" to balance or range of motion.

The ticky tacky or minutiae (for me) tend to kick in when (1) people are getting hurt, (2) they can't access athleticism/have poor body awareness, or (3) they're trying to optimize, which often requires exaggerations. Some people seem to respond faster to balance in OLD, some seem to respond faster in the bigger drills, kind of interesting.

I rarely ever mention most of what I talk about around here unless absolutely necessary to get through to someone. For a subset of people, they also get hostile as soon as the language gets remotely mechanical. I think some people are very upset that they have struggled to improve and are just frustrated and confused, or hold onto one set of beliefs very tightly. So a lot of this on DGCR is just mechanics curiosity and musing for me.

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

Musing a little here, but sometimes I wonder about how much this minutae (sorry if that sound negative, not intentional) is particularly useful to focus on. I was working on some footwork stuff this weekend where my plant step is a little too long and my balance is behind my brace. Once I started shortening up that last step, all the back leg counterbalance, Thighmaster, etc. stuff "just works." I have to imagine this is why SW contextualizes this stuff in larger movements. To be balanced on your plant leg you HAVE to pull your back leg in and behind to counter. Ergo, if you work on being balanced on your front leg (which is the important part), these other things are more "checkboxes" vs. actual motions to work on and drill.

If you do something as simple as stand on one leg, to stay balanced, you'll notice you bend over slightly and the opposite leg kicks back slightly. If you can't balance on one leg, it's more important (in my mind) to work on that, not leaning over or kicking the opposite leg back, specifically.

I know I come at this with a fairly athletic, throwing sports background, so I don't want to sound like I'm poo-pooing stuff like the Thighmaster drill, I just wonder if it might be more helpful to do, say, the one-leg drill and have "checkboxes" to note specifics where people might be having issues with the larger movement.

Hopefully, all that rambling makes sense

Youre totally right. We are in the weeds for sure. But we are the top 5% of weirdos who care about this stuff, and we enjoy musing about it. Its fun to try to figure it out.

Am I going to tell a 60 year old dude that he needs to adduct his rear leg more to counterweight in a lesson? Nope. Im gonna tell him he needs to get his swing plane flat and stop over activating his back muscles to throw. Everyone gets a cue for them specifically. As Brychanus said not much of the minutia is going to come up for most people, unless they happen to be already at pretty solid form and are trying little cues to optimize...

 

[Jaani]

I made the ThighMaster video because so many couldn't understand the back hip moving forward as the front hip goes out of the way. For me it happens very naturally as I brace. For some, it doesn't, it seems.

I figured I must do something I don't know with the front leg, and after a while deduced it must be some involuntary thigh activation or just having tense muscles. Probably both.

And then, as I mentioned, I remember hearing the que ThighMaster from one Robert I talked with about the brace. And then did this tensing by purpose, and holy shit the hips got faster and the back leg got pulled in even more pronounced than before. I figured it must be it.

Granted, inner thighs work pretty much as a pair, as I understand, but my brain wants to think I only work the front leg. And there is also the branding reason for not making it a backleg move . You know...

And Trebuchet, you're right about everything. Good text.

 

[Brychanus]

I made the ThighMaster video because so many couldn't understand the back hip moving forward as the front hip goes out of the way. For me it happens very naturally as I brace. For some, it doesn't, it seems.

I figured I must do something I don't know with the front leg, and after a while deduced it must be some involuntary thigh activation or just having tense muscles. Probably both.

And then, as I mentioned, I remember hearing the que ThighMaster from one Robert I talked with about the brace. And then did this tensing by purpose, and holy shit the hips got faster and the back leg got pulled in even more pronounced than before. I figured it must be it.

Granted, inner thighs work pretty much as a pair, as I understand, but my brain wants to think I only work the front leg. And there is also the branding reason for not making it a backleg move . You know...

And Trebuchet, you're right about everything. Good text.

Get where you're coming from here too dude.

FWIW I didn't realize for a while one of the problems with how I was doing the Seabas drills was that my interior thighs were too "inert" (that wasn't his fault because he shows it in there, I just had never had to do something like that before).

Oddly like you are saying there is a way to still access a tilted axis and weight shift, but kind of just leaving the rear leg a bit behind, which is not ideal.

I had to practice a few things and use kettlebell swings and lunges, club swings etc to help my body figure out how it do it as I loaded back and shifted forward. Still have work to do.

The concept is "baked into" ride the bull or the other turbo Encabulator moves mentioned before like sidewinder had mentioned, so I am just trying to encourage the olive branch wherever common ground can be found.

If someone is struggling with that problem, maybe also try literal Thighmaster, hip adduction machine, ride the bull and squeeezing a pole or something thicker in between, etc. it's kind of obvious once you get it but harder to integrate for many people I think...

 

[TrebuchetDiscGolf]

And Trebuchet, you're right about everything.

You heard it here first, Folks. Don't forget it!

 

[Sheep]

If I am ever in Nashville again and you tell me your shirt size, I will buy you a shirt as long as you don't mind if it's a Marvel character (you get to pick!). And a 6-pack.

I don't wear t-shirts, but we can go have beer. Let me know.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Just remembered SW sharing this with me at some point if you hadn't seen*:


*beyond the words: the "push and drag" described involves hip adduction+resistance in the backswing, and then is part of what collects the leg forward in the "drag"

Yeah more of sidewinder "useless" bolf videos... damn I hate those... out of principle... haha he was kind enough to drop that on my form thread last year. It's made a large difference to my swing (abduction?). I occasionally get that double tap on my back foot now, i previously thought that was a bad thing before this discussion... been working on that all year...

 

[timothy42b]

We can, Brychanus! I got you.

Just came back from a round, where I tried jaanis cue aaaand:

Somewhat like Brychanus, my brain dives into weeds obsessively. Unlike him, that doesn't help my throw. But it's the way I'm wired. And sometimes I type too many words.

My first thought on seeing the Jaani video was wondering whether this falls into the deliberate vs associated category. Is it something we should do purposefully? vs something that should happen if we do something else correctly. I'm not distinguishing between consciously and unconsciously. A large number of motions are done consciously and then eventually become habitual. Deliberate elements are different from associated ones, and sometimes it's dangerous to force something deliberately that should just be happening, or that needs a specific precursor to happen.

That was also my reaction to Josh's recent "don't release" thread - do we let the disc rip? vs do we ensure the disc rips. And I think it applies - maybe - to some of the Chris Taylor shoulder adduction scap retraction stuff. At least it is a question we should ask.

A complication is if there are some distinctly different swing patterns, like there apparently are in ball golf, where something needs to be deliberate in one pattern and automatic in another.

(off topic but of interest to nerds - there's an old study by physicists at one of the British universities that described two distinct ball golf swing patterns. I haven't been able to find it but Homer Kelley describes it as hitting (axe handle) vs swinging (rope pull). I have his book but there are no references. Today I found there is a biography of him that talks about his journey, and I need to read that.)

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah more of sidewinder "useless" bolf videos... damn I hate those... out of principle... haha he was kind enough to drop that on my form thread last year. It's made a large difference to my swing (abduction?). I occasionally get that double tap on my back foot now, i previously thought that was a bad thing before this discussion... been working on that all year...

Not for nothing, even if ball golf there is still controversy about the toe drag and hip adduction recruitment sequence/emphasis/etc. So that's why I'm still interested in an actual discussion if there really is some fundamental difference in how @Jaani or @sidewinder22 or anyone else perceives the issue or just a difference in context or emphasis. Still just working to understand.

Somewhat like Brychanus, my brain dives into weeds obsessively. Unlike him, that doesn't help my throw. But it's the way I'm wired. And sometimes I type too many words.

My first thought on seeing the Jaani video was wondering whether this falls into the deliberate vs associated category. Is it something we should do purposefully? vs something that should happen if we do something else correctly. I'm not distinguishing between consciously and unconsciously. A large number of motions are done consciously and then eventually become habitual. Deliberate elements are different from associated ones, and sometimes it's dangerous to force something deliberately that should just be happening, or that needs a specific precursor to happen.

That was also my reaction to Josh's recent "don't release" thread - do we let the disc rip? vs do we ensure the disc rips. And I think it applies - maybe - to some of the Chris Taylor shoulder adduction scap retraction stuff. At least it is a question we should ask.

A complication is if there are some distinctly different swing patterns, like there apparently are in ball golf, where something needs to be deliberate in one pattern and automatic in another.

(off topic but of interest to nerds - there's an old study by physicists at one of the British universities that described two distinct ball golf swing patterns. I haven't been able to find it but Homer Kelley describes it as hitting (axe handle) vs swinging (rope pull). I have his book but there are no references. Today I found there is a biography of him that talks about his journey, and I need to read that.)

I think about this frequently ever since you first pointed it out to me. I'd be very happy to live in a world where we discover there are a few things we'd eventually call fundamentally different forms at the highest level.

My recent favorite baseball example: you and I (and data and more professional commentators) would say that Bryce Harper and Ken Griffey Jr. both hit home runs. They have the "same" end goal of their moves overall. But one of them looks way more "tilted spiral-y" than the other to me relying on momentum and centrifugal forces, and another on a "load and stay back and decompress forward/horizontal" move. One looks way less effortful than the other to me. Is it? Does it matter? Is one body always going to be better at one move than the other? Is one more adapted to or a function of its time and circumstance, or are they "portable" to different baseball eras?

Maybe also one of the reasons Jaani and Sidewinder don't quite see eye to eye on the topic at the head of the thread is along dimensions automaticity/functional/sequencing/postural/degrees of loading etc. In their own moves it is possible that part of the distinction is mostly about their bodies' histories and overall shapes and force transfer of their moves. Or maybe not, I just can't quite tell yet when trying to see the signal in the noise.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

My first thought on seeing the Jaani video was wondering whether this falls into the deliberate vs associated category

my current opinion is that if you are of the "pelvis is an anchor" camp where your only thought is to stop your forward momentum and keep your center of mass as far behind your plant foot as possible before swinging your arm you're going to probably recruit thighmaster muscles naturally as a result of trying to stop better. The toe touch seems to me like a result of a better/earlier brace keeping you closed for longer.

A complication is if there are some distinctly different swing patterns, like there apparently are in ball golf, where something needs to be deliberate in one pattern and automatic in another.

I see two at the moment (though on a spectrum). The best example is the feeling of the hand and when it is active/passive.

Swingy boys and girls (aka out/in/out or wide rail):
Hand is brought in to the chest passively but if you don't add some speed/effort/acceleration to the hand out of the pocket it comes out early and feels soooooo weak.

Pullers:
Hand is moved forward down the "line" actively and there is no need to focus on an "out" because the late move of the hand to the front of the disc is automatic as you move down the line. Any intentional move "out" here results in an early/weak release.

FWIW: both styles are taught and accepted by various parts of the dg community.

FWIW2: I personally have felt the differences in both and the swing I can do up to about 65mph while I can do the pull up to about 68mph. Certainly not the fastest numbers in the world but I would imagine it would lend some credibility to the feel distinction; especially given my stature and body "type" lol."

 

[sidewinder22]

My point exactly. Here, you are claiming ownership of what I say and teach.

And no, I don't watch your videos. I watched a few some time ago, and the fact that you have to prove your point by looking for my Facebook posts from several years ago speaks for itself. Yes, I thought for a while that S&T had a point, but now I don't. Overthrow was there, too. You might be the only coach who never made a mistake; congrats on that. Must feel good.

I have no problem debating ideas, but I'm put off by your "I said it before you" style. This is the exact reason I don't want to be part of the DG Coaching community: Our values are too different. As Josh mentioned above, this is, sadly, the way coaching works in Disc Golf. You have to be the first to say something, anything, so that you can claim ownership and dismiss everyone else even if they improve from your original.

Cool, so you are saying that I've had zero influence on anything you are teaching? Duly noted! Please accept my apoligies, I stand corrected and I will shut my big yapper about helping or influencing you on anything ever again. How do you know if someone improved upon one of my vids, or know that I've never made a mistake, if you don't watch my vids or other's vids? Seems a little closed minded IMO to actively avoid watching other's content, but that is your own discretion. I would be shocked if I was correct about everything, so maybe you are right to not watch my content or tell people to not watch it. I wouldn't bother watching or learning anything new if I actually thought I knew everything, but here I am constantly seeking and viewing and posting new content and ideas from any good source I can find.

I've only commented on two of your videos, the one this thread is about and the other video was about the Top 10 Smoothest Throwers. I never claimed ownership of anything you have done, nor said "I did this before you", you have manufactured that in your own mind. I see that you do respond similarly to some other similar innocuous youtube comments on your own channel, so I don't feel so singled out now.

Like you, I'm only trying to help people throw better, and I never thought that leaving a comment that might contain helpful additional information about the subject on hand would be such a horrible thing. On YouTube you do have the freedom to delete my comment/s and ban me from commenting from your channel, so I'm not sure why this is such a big deal anyways, you can create your own comment universe if you so desire. Most educational videos have the comments turned off for a reason and is something you could consider if they really bother you that much and truly just want to get info out there.

If you, or myself, or anyone, makes a claim that they "invented", or are going to "revolutionize" some concept, or the good ole "nobody ever talks about this", then they should be confindent about that claim, and not be surprised or upset if/when someone comments that it has been done before to some effect or something that might be construed as such. If you can't handle that kind of comment with some grace after making such a bold claim then it might seem a bit insecure or disengenious.

OverthrowJosh and I have had many similar private conversations that you and I have had in the past.

It's interesting how you had no qualms publicly talking about how people should not consume my content, while you never gave me video source credit when you used this Jarvis vs Griffey video I created, even after I asked. I always try to give credit when it's due, but that's just me.

Good luck on your endeveours sir. /rant

 

[Brychanus]

my current opinion is that if you are of the "pelvis is an anchor" camp where your only thought is to stop your forward momentum and keep your center of mass as far behind your plant foot as possible before swinging your arm you're going to probably recruit thighmaster muscles naturally as a result of trying to stop better. The toe touch seems to me like a result of a better/earlier brace keeping you closed for longer.

I see two at the moment (though on a spectrum). The best example is the feeling of the hand and when it is active/passive.

Swingy boys and girls (aka out/in/out or wide rail):
Hand is brought in to the chest passively but if you don't add some speed/effort/acceleration to the hand out of the pocket it comes out early and feels soooooo weak.

Pullers:
Hand is moved forward down the "line" actively and there is no need to focus on an "out" because the late move of the hand to the front of the disc is automatic as you move down the line. Any intentional move "out" here results in an early/weak release.

FWIW: both styles are taught and accepted by various parts of the dg community.

FWIW2: I personally have felt the differences in both and the swing I can do up to about 65mph while I can do the pull up to about 68mph. Certainly not the fastest numbers in the world but I would imagine it would lend some credibility to the feel distinction; especially given my stature and body "type" lol."

This helped me reconcile what was bothering me. Thanks

 

[OverthrowJosh]

This helped me reconcile what was bothering me. Thanks

Care to share with the class? Lol

Or you can just text me if it's personal