Throwing while previous thrower's disc is still in the air?

[inboxcar]

Was just watching the final round of Beaver State Fling and saw Gannon do this. Threw his drive a couple seconds after the Anttila threw (from the tee), and Anttila's disc was still in the air. I had never seen this before, is there any rule that addresses this? I'm assuming not.

Looked pretty cool seeing both discs sailing down the fairway together.

 

[BillFleming]

Was just watching the final round of Beaver State Fling and saw Gannon do this. Threw his drive a couple seconds after the Anttila threw (from the tee), and Anttila's disc was still in the air. I had never seen this before, is there any rule that addresses this? I'm assuming not.

Looked pretty cool seeing both discs sailing down the fairway together.

I thought "there has to be rule about that" and looked at every rule that might be applicable. Closest thing I found was 802.03 Excessive Time which states in part

A player has taken excessive time if they are present and have not thrown within 30 seconds:
After the previous player has thrown

It doesn't say anything about 'after the previous throw has come to a stop'. So as long as you throw within the 30 seconds, you are good.

It is kind of strange that there doesn't seem to be rule that the previous throw must come to a stop. But, if your disc hit the other player's disc while it was still moving....that would be interference.

 

[Mocheez]

He probably got tired of fans complaining about 30 second violations.

 

[robdeforge]

Was just watching the final round of Beaver State Fling and saw Gannon do this. Threw his drive a couple seconds after the Anttila threw (from the tee), and Anttila's disc was still in the air. I had never seen this before, is there any rule that addresses this? I'm assuming not.

Looked pretty cool seeing both discs sailing down the fairway together.

nope, totally allowed, just very weird lol

 

[Hampstead]

There was a Texas tournament a few years ago and a roller went OB onto a residential street and the wind kept it rolling for a long time. I seem to recall Big Sexy laughing and saying that the next throw couldn't happen until it came to rest but it didn't want to stop rolling. They might have been joking. It was awhile ago.

 

[thatdirtykid]

Unless someone wanted to call a courtesy violation there's not anything written to not allow it.

The fact we are supposedly required to watch other players throws you could argue that you cannot watch two at once, or you cannot watch while throwing.

The wording of the 30s rule is still so bad. Why say you have to throw within 30s of the previous person when it also says with adequate time to arrive at your lie. I suppose I should start camping on the back of the teepad waiting for my turn.


Also its fun to do this while playing mob golf or while playing through buddies. Take as many people as you got and "tailgate" each other.

 

[robdeforge]

Unless someone wanted to call a courtesy violation there's not anything written to not allow it.

A player must...
Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs.

Gannon watched Niklas throw, so you couldn't give him a courtesy violation for this.

 

[txmxer]

Gannon watched Niklas throw, so you couldn't give him a courtesy violation for this.

For not watching it finish? Have to see if it lands in bounds.

Not that I'm arguing for a violation. I do think it was an option.

 

[dmoore1998]

For not watching it finish? Have to see if it lands in bounds.

Not that I'm arguing for a violation. I do think it was an option.

What rules says you have to see if it lands in bounds though? I could see "you have to see if it makes the mando" but whether it lands in bounds or out of bounds is something you're going to see when you arrive at the disc...and anything you say from the teepad is probably speculation. I can't think of any requirement that says you have to know if a disc is in bounds or out from the tee (or from the lie they are throwing from).

 

[txmxer]

What rules says you have to see if it lands in bounds though? I could see "you have to see if it makes the mando" but whether it lands in bounds or out of bounds is something you're going to see when you arrive at the disc...and anything you say from the teepad is probably speculation. I can't think of any requirement that says you have to know if a disc is in bounds or out from the tee (or from the lie they are throwing from).

Good point. I was thinking about a mando.

But, if not said, isn't implied that you are supposed to watch it finish so you can help find it if lost?

 

[Steve West]

Why say you have to throw within 30s of the previous person when it also says with adequate time to arrive at your lie.

Because the thirty seconds starts after both have happened. "After ... and ... after".

If you've had time to arrive at your lie, but the previous player has not thrown yet, the thirty seconds doesn't start yet.

If the previous player has thrown, but you haven't had time to get to your lie, the thirty seconds doesn't start yet.

 

[dmoore1998]

Good point. I was thinking about a mando.

But, if not said, isn't implied that you are supposed to watch it finish so you can help find it if lost?

I do think it's implied that you're supposed to keep watching it. Or at least common sense that you should. That said...I don't know how many players are watching THAT closely to be able to find a lost disc other than a general "kind of this area".

It makes no real sense NOT to watch the entire flight, I just wasn't sure what rule would apply to that "might be OB" situation given how unsure/wrong players can be from the tee anyways (hence spotters)

 

[thatdirtykid]

Because the thirty seconds starts after both have happened. "After ... and ... after".

If you've had time to arrive at your lie, but the previous player has not thrown yet, the thirty seconds doesn't start yet.

If the previous player has thrown, but you haven't had time to get to your lie, the thirty seconds doesn't start yet.

That makes sense, still a little redundant but rules need to be.

Gannon watched Niklas throw, so you couldn't give him a courtesy violation for this.

Regarding watching the flight it is the players on the cards responsibility to watch the full flight. To see made mandos yes, also where it may have crossed OB lines, potential lost disc situations you are more informed if you actually watched the shot. All of this is actually included in the rules under courtesy violation.
812B.2 "Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs."

 

[BillFleming]

You can't have a rule that states "you must watch the entire flight". There are doglegs and other holes where you just can't see the entire flight. Same thing with a disc that goes into woods. There are lots of times you just can't always see the full flight, nor when the disc comes to a stop. Could you see the entire card running up to the corner of the dogleg to see the entire flight and where the disc stops? That would be hilarious.

And watching the throw? Well, the throw is the forward motion of the disc up to when it is released, after you release the disc you are no longer throwing it.

I can see a reason for throwing before the previous player's disc has come to a stop - wind. Maybe the player is trying to take advantage of a calm moment before the wind picks up again.

I think the only time a courtesy violation could be called is if something happened with the previous thrower's disc and the card was asked for a ruling. If the 'fast' player said "I was throwing my disc so I didn't see what happened"....that could/should lead to a courtesy warning (at a minimum). As said before...it would mainly be a concern when a mando is involved.

 

[thatdirtykid]

I suppose in this specific case (where I also am not trying to say a violation should be called) the question would be if Gannon was able to watch Niklas disc through the flight, or if the card mates were able to watch both, and that point is moot if the disc is found, in bounds.

 

[2naphish]

the only thing i could find is that throwing before the other players flight has ended could be interperated as a courtesy violation since .

A player must:
Perform actions expected by the rules, including:
Helping to find a lost disc; and,
Moving equipment when asked; and,
Keeping score properly.
Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs.

i don't see how you could watch another players shot if you are in the process of throwing your own.

 

[2naphish]

oooops.... slow on the trigger.

 

[BillFleming]

the only thing i could find is that throwing before the other players flight has ended could be interperated as a courtesy violation since .

A player must:
Perform actions expected by the rules, including:
Helping to find a lost disc; and,
Moving equipment when asked; and,
Keeping score properly.
Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs.

i don't see how you could watch another players shot if you are in the process of throwing your own.

Not watching the flight of the disc would not meet the criteria you quoted above. Specifically due to the bolded part. The 'throw' is not the flight and/or landing of the disc.

From the PDGA Rule book 802.01 Throw, part A.

A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

I 'believe' the reasoning for the wording that you quoted is to require players to watch for things like foot-faults and to see the direction the disc goes....not necessarily the entire flight/landing; which of course can't always be seen. Sometimes you can't tell where a disc went OB even if you watch the entire flight that is visible.

 

[robdeforge]

Regarding watching the flight it is the players on the cards responsibility to watch the full flight. To see made mandos yes, also where it may have crossed OB lines, potential lost disc situations you are more informed if you actually watched the shot. All of this is actually included in the rules under courtesy violation.
812B.2 "Watch the other members of the group throw in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs."

Exactly. as I said, Gannon watched Niklas throw.

there seems to be a disconnect between what it says and what you want it to say. You want it to say "Watch the other members of the group throw and watch the full flight of their disc in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs." but it doesn't say that.

 

[dmoore1998]

Exactly. as I said, Gannon watched Niklas throw.

there seems to be a disconnect between what it says and what you want it to say. You want it to say "Watch the other members of the group throw and watch the full flight of their disc in order to ensure rules compliance and to help find discs." but it doesn't say that.

So do you think players have any obligation to watch any part of the flight of the disc for "rules compliance" issues like making a mando, identifying where a disc crosses OB, etc?

I tend to think they have SOME...but I also don't think what Gannon did is a violation (I might be more on the fence if the throw looked to clearly be heading OB, or there was a mando it had to make).