Throwing while previous thrower's disc is still in the air?

[Countchunkula]

Somewhat related, my 10 year old thinks it's hilarious to wait until I'm releasing my putt and then zing a forehand at the basket hoping to deny my putt. Between the boys and my old dog consistently barking during my x-step, I should be pretty good at managing distractions by now.

 

[BillFleming]

So do you think players have any obligation to watch any part of the flight of the disc for "rules compliance" issues like making a mando, identifying where a disc crosses OB, etc?

I tend to think they have SOME...but I also don't think what Gannon did is a violation (I might be more on the fence if the throw looked to clearly be heading OB, or there was a mando it had to make).

If there's a mando, then you need to watch the disc (that falls under watching it for compliance with the rules)....as I said in a previous post, the PDGA really can't make a rule that you have to watch the disc to see if it goes OB. Lots of holes have OB out of the line of sight from the players. There are dogleg holes with OB, there are holes that have elevation changes with OB; and in both of those cases you may not be able to see the OB from the player's lie. So are you going to make a rule that all the players have to run up the fairway after each throw to see the entire flight in case the disc goes OB? That sure would be fun to see.

Seriously, a mando is always within sight of the tee pad, but OB isn't. I've seen tournaments where a disc was thrown, went OB, but no one saw WHERE it went OB, so the card decided the most likely spot where the OB happened. It's a fact of life that not all OB is observable from the spot of the throw, so mandating that you have to watch the disc to see if it goes OB isn't going to happen.

 

[dmoore1998]

If there's a mando, then you need to watch the disc (that falls under watching it for compliance with the rules)....as I said in a previous post, the PDGA really can't make a rule that you have to watch the disc to see if it goes OB. Lots of holes have OB out of the line of sight from the players. There are dogleg holes with OB, there are holes that have elevation changes with OB; and in both of those cases you may not be able to see the OB from the player's lie. So are you going to make a rule that all the players have to run up the fairway after each throw to see the entire flight in case the disc goes OB? That sure would be fun to see.

Seriously, a mando is always within sight of the tee pad, but OB isn't. I've seen tournaments where a disc was thrown, went OB, but no one saw WHERE it went OB, so the card decided the most likely spot where the OB happened. It's a fact of life that not all OB is observable from the spot of the throw, so mandating that you have to watch the disc to see if it goes OB isn't going to happen.

I would think the rule would be something like "must watch while the disc is visible from the lie" or something? I'm also not sure a mando is ALWAYS visible from a tee pad...probably almost always visible from a lie...but some longer holes have mandos deep into the hole that could potentially come into play without a great view of them.

But that was really the interpretation question. How much are people interpreting into "must watch the throw" (which is the disc just leaving the hand) vs "to ensure rules compliance" which could happen at different points after the throw and may not even be readily visible.

 

[BillFleming]

I would think the rule would be something like "must watch while the disc is visible from the lie" or something? I'm also not sure a mando is ALWAYS visible from a tee pad...probably almost always visible from a lie...but some longer holes have mandos deep into the hole that could potentially come into play without a great view of them.

But that was really the interpretation question. How much are people interpreting into "must watch the throw" (which is the disc just leaving the hand) vs "to ensure rules compliance" which could happen at different points after the throw and may not even be readily visible.

I would think a mando would always have to be visible off the tee pad. That's the only lie where everyone starts from the same point and has the same approach to a mando. Imagine a mando being out of sight and someone throws a huge drive that goes out of sight (like around a dogleg) only to miss a mando? How could you tell the mando was missed? Or they throw a beautiful shot, only to end up in an almost unplayable lie because they couldn't see the mando from where they threw from?

And there's an issue with the bolded wording.....it says while the disc is visible. Okay, I threw my disc....it landed and we can all see it....so it is visible. The bolded wording means we have to keep watching it until someone/thing covers it up or moves it. Seriously, that would happen...and it's also why the Rules Committee has to work so hard on rules....wording is important as it has to be taken literally.

I don't think it is necessary to watch the discs full flight until it is out of sight or has come to a stop. If there is a mando, yes it has to be watched until the disc is out of sight or has come to a stop....but that is necessary to see if the disc missed the mando. It would be difficult to word the rules to require watching a disc to see if it goes OB, since some OB is out of sight. Maybe the wording could be "watch the disc until it is out of sight or has come to a stop". That might work. But then there will be people who turn away after the throw and say....it's out of my sight. I mean, look at how many players look away when someone is putting - they aren't even watching for rules violations and yet they don't get penalized.

 

[dmoore1998]

I would think a mando would always have to be visible off the tee pad. That's the only lie where everyone starts from the same point and has the same approach to a mando. Imagine a mando being out of sight and someone throws a huge drive that goes out of sight (like around a dogleg) only to miss a mando? How could you tell the mando was missed? Or they throw a beautiful shot, only to end up in an almost unplayable lie because they couldn't see the mando from where they threw from?

DGPT Waco stop, hole 12. I've seen others as well. Not visible from the tee (the 2nd one, the 1st is right off the tee).

Caddy book link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B6SzMzmMMMAEim0P6bfokM_2WH8Z6Mhy/view

I've seen some others too...almost always on long holes where it's intended to be for a non-tee shot...but it's not crazy to think someone could throw a big shot (or a roller) and be impacted by the mando.

 

[robdeforge]

So do you think players have any obligation to watch any part of the flight of the disc for "rules compliance" issues like making a mando, identifying where a disc crosses OB, etc?

I tend to think they have SOME...but I also don't think what Gannon did is a violation (I might be more on the fence if the throw looked to clearly be heading OB, or there was a mando it had to make).

I would agree with you. it's dependent on the context of the situation/hole, so my earlier posts could have been a bit clearer on that

 

[araytx]

I would think a mando would always have to be visible off the tee pad. That's the only lie where everyone starts from the same point and has the same approach to a mando. Imagine a mando being out of sight and someone throws a huge drive that goes out of sight (like around a dogleg) only to miss a mando? How could you tell the mando was missed? Or they throw a beautiful shot, only to end up in an almost unplayable lie because they couldn't see the mando from where they threw from?

And there's an issue with the bolded wording.....it says while the disc is visible. Okay, I threw my disc....it landed and we can all see it....so it is visible. The bolded wording means we have to keep watching it until someone/thing covers it up or moves it. Seriously, that would happen...and it's also why the Rules Committee has to work so hard on rules....wording is important as it has to be taken literally.

I don't think it is necessary to watch the discs full flight until it is out of sight or has come to a stop. If there is a mando, yes it has to be watched until the disc is out of sight or has come to a stop....but that is necessary to see if the disc missed the mando. It would be difficult to word the rules to require watching a disc to see if it goes OB, since some OB is out of sight. Maybe the wording could be "watch the disc until it is out of sight or has come to a stop". That might work. But then there will be people who turn away after the throw and say....it's out of my sight. I mean, look at how many players look away when someone is putting - they aren't even watching for rules violations and yet they don't get penalized.

With the advent of more multiple-drive designed holes on courses, there are plenty of mandos not visible form the tee box. They might be all visible from the correct landing zone, but the tee box -- hmmm, maybe. Remember hole 10 famously at The Fort in Utah?

 

[BillFleming]

With the advent of more multiple-drive designed holes on courses, there are plenty of mandos not visible form the tee box. They might be all visible from the correct landing zone, but the tee box -- hmmm, maybe. Remember hole 10 famously at The Fort in Utah?

I'm not familiar with that course/hole. But I think Mando's that are out of sight from the tee pad shouldn't exist. Maybe there is a good reason for it, but if there's not a spotter, I think they are worthless. Maybe right now no one can reach them and they are visible from the 'expected' throwing area....but players are getting more distance and taking different lines. So it is possible that a Mando that can't be seen from the tee pad could be missed by a tee shot or a second shot that still is out of sight of the Mando.

It doesn't seem fair for a player to have a lie where a Mando isn't visible, make a beautiful throw and miss the unseen Mando. It also creates a need for the cardmates to be in front of the player so they can see the Mando and if the disc misses it or not.

I would also be hesitant to trust a spotter's call on a Mando. Working as a tournament volunteer and then as a course director, I have seen and been aware of spotters making a wrong call concerning a Mando. On a blind Mando, the players wouldn't be able to 'overrule' the spotter's call.

 

[thatdirtykid]

I've seen tournaments where a disc was thrown, went OB, but no one saw WHERE it went OB, so the card decided the most likely spot where the OB happened. It's a fact of life that not all OB is observable from the spot of the throw, so mandating that you have to watch the disc to see if it goes OB isn't going to happen.

If you stop watching as soon as release, or am only focused on the player and not the flight how do you determine where it most likely crossed OB? You are less informed and less likely to be able to make an accurate call.

I agree the wording leaves a lot to be desired there, but I would bet that the intent of the rule is so that a player can be as informed as reasonable to make the calls that players are having to make.

And for what its worth, if someone was on my card and I have a disc land off fairway, is determined lost and a player on my card claims they have no idea what direction it may have went cause they weren't watching there's a good chance they would be trying to defend your interpretation of the rules with the TD at the end of the round.

I would also be hesitant to trust a spotter's call on a Mando. Working as a tournament volunteer and then as a course director, I have seen and been aware of spotters making a wrong call concerning a Mando. On a blind Mando, the players wouldn't be able to 'overrule' the spotter's call.

100% agree with this. Also agree that if there is a mando that potentially could be passed off the tee and is blind to the players its a bad hole. If the landing zone is in the open and there is a mando that effects the second shot and can be viewed from the majority of possible lies I don't see a problem with mandos down the fairway.

 

[robdeforge]

If you stop watching as soon as release, or am only focused on the player and not the flight how do you determine where it most likely crossed OB? You are less informed and less likely to be able to make an accurate call.

I agree the wording leaves a lot to be desired there, but I would bet that the intent of the rule is so that a player can be as informed as reasonable to make the calls that players are having to make.

And for what its worth, if someone was on my card and I have a disc land off fairway, is determined lost and a player on my card claims they have no idea what direction it may have went cause they weren't watching there's a good chance they would be trying to defend your interpretation of the rules with the TD at the end of the round.



100% agree with this. Also agree that if there is a mando that potentially could be passed off the tee and is blind to the players its a bad hole. If the landing zone is in the open and there is a mando that effects the second shot and can be viewed from the majority of possible lies I don't see a problem with mandos down the fairway.

at the end of the day I think the answer is:
It is totally legal to throw your drive while another player's disc is in the air, but there is at least one thing that need to be satisfied:
* have to be able to watch both discs general flight to be able to be able to assist with finding lost discs (per the rules)
* the rules compliance bit also means you need to be able to tell if it misses a mando, when it crosses OB, etc.

Throwing immediately after Niklas does not make that impossible but definitely more difficult. So I think this is highly dependent on the context of the hole that is being played

Also worth noting that, if somebody wanted to make a call on this for Gannon, I would think the expectation should be that this call is ALSO made in other instances where players aren't paying attention to other players showing. which happens a lot and just goes unnoticed/unreported. not a can of warms that you want to open or is worth opening IMO

 

[thatdirtykid]

I agree. There are probably more glaring issues of times players aren't paying attention as well as other rules that aren't getting called for a host of reasons. There are also times that it's not ideal, especially for pace of play, for all players to be watching all throws. Two players on opposite sides of the fairway behind trees. You would add a lot of time, looking for discs, walking back and forth between peoples lies ect.

 

[araytx]

I'm not familiar with that course/hole. But I think Mando's that are out of sight from the tee pad shouldn't exist. Maybe there is a good reason for it, but if there's not a spotter, I think they are worthless. Maybe right now no one can reach them and they are visible from the 'expected' throwing area....but players are getting more distance and taking different lines. So it is possible that a Mando that can't be seen from the tee pad could be missed by a tee shot or a second shot that still is out of sight of the Mando.

It doesn't seem fair for a player to have a lie where a Mando isn't visible, make a beautiful throw and miss the unseen Mando. It also creates a need for the cardmates to be in front of the player so they can see the Mando and if the disc misses it or not.

I would also be hesitant to trust a spotter's call on a Mando. Working as a tournament volunteer and then as a course director, I have seen and been aware of spotters making a wrong call concerning a Mando. On a blind Mando, the players wouldn't be able to 'overrule' the spotter's call.

You aren't familiar with the hole? (And ditto for anyone else.) Didn't watch the Worlds where James Conrad made what is now referred to as "the Holy Shot"? How are any regulars followers of disc golf not aware of that one?

Now that being said, you're missing my intent, so I am going to put that on me for not having a detailed enough explanation. I will AGREE with you all that there shouldn't be a mando where a player can throw and miss the mando because it is out of the line of sight (off the tee blind). I absolutely agree. However, that SHOULD NOT preclude a well-designed multiple-drive hole where the mando isn't visible from the tee throw but IS visible on throw #2 (or 3 for that matter). On this course, and several others I've seen, the mando isn't accessible (even for Simon lines) from the tee. The first shot (in this case, maybe 3rd in some others) is to get your next lie lined up appropriately to make the throw through or by the mando easier. And the better the tee shot, controlling both speed and distance, leaves the thrower with a better chance for a lower score; the worse the tee shot, leaves the thrower with a tougher throw through the mando, maybe causing him/her to lay up and lose the chance at birdie or a play risk/reward tough throw – just like this hole did at "Holy Shot" Worlds. But you can't miss the mando blind from the tee, because you literally can't get there. Even "the bestest of bestest" throwers aren't getting there. Of course, I am committing to a design wherein NEITHER bad nor good throws can miss the mando. Just like this one at The Fort.

at the end of the day I think the answer is:
It is totally legal to throw your drive while another player's disc is in the air, but there is at least one thing that need to be satisfied:
* have to be able to watch both discs general flight to be able to be able to assist with finding lost discs (per the rules)
* the rules compliance bit also means you need to be able to tell if it misses a mando, when it crosses OB, etc.

Throwing immediately after Niklas does not make that impossible but definitely more difficult. So I think this is highly dependent on the context of the hole that is being played

Also worth noting that, if somebody wanted to make a call on this for Gannon, I would think the expectation should be that this call is ALSO made in other instances where players aren't paying attention to other players showing. which happens a lot and just goes unnoticed/unreported. not a can of warms that you want to open or is worth opening IMO

It quite possibly may be that that is what you think is the "best answer". Unfortunately, that's not the current rule. Who knows? Your input herein may be taken into account for future rules edits by PDGA.

 

[robdeforge]

It quite possibly may be that that is what you think is the "best answer". Unfortunately, that's not the current rule. Who knows? Your input herein may be taken into account for future rules edits by PDGA.

what from my "best answer" was incorrect/not the current rule?

 

[araytx]

what from my "best answer" was incorrect/not the current rule?

I think the Blue portion below is not the same as 812.B.2. It may apply in certain situations, however, without a mando, OB possibility etc., that doesn't appear to me to be the same. NOT saying it shouldn't be, just that is the current rule.

at the end of the day I think the answer is:
It is totally legal to throw your drive while another player's disc is in the air, but there is at least one thing that need to be satisfied:
* have to be able to watch both discs general flight to be able to be able to assist with finding lost discs (per the rules)
* the rules compliance bit also means you need to be able to tell if it misses a mando, when it crosses OB, etc.

Throwing immediately after Niklas does not make that impossible but definitely more difficult. So I think this is highly dependent on the context of the hole that is being played

Also worth noting that, if somebody wanted to make a call on this for Gannon, I would think the expectation should be that this call is ALSO made in other instances where players aren't paying attention to other players showing. which happens a lot and just goes unnoticed/unreported. not a can of warms that you want to open or is worth opening IMO

 

[Steve West]

I think the Blue portion below is not the same as 812.B.2. It may apply in certain situations, however, without a mando, OB possibility etc., that doesn't appear to me to be the same. NOT saying it shouldn't be, just that is the current rule.

You also need to watch the disc land to ensure that the player actually goes to that spot to make the next throw.

As an example: Someone on your card throws from the edge of the treeline when you saw the disc fly in about 25 feet off the ground. If you hadn't watched, they could get away with it.

And lots of other forms of cheating - which shall not be described here.

 

[Keokuk Discer]

Here's my thoughts. If you throw while another's disc is in the air, you run the very real risk of hitting that disc, thus interfering with its flight.

 

[robdeforge]

I think the Blue portion below is not the same as 812.B.2. It may apply in certain situations, however, without a mando, OB possibility etc., that doesn't appear to me to be the same. NOT saying it shouldn't be, just that is the current rule.

I now understand what you're saying and, very valid point and I agree. even tho I feel I still stand by my interpretation, it is an interpretation of what the rules imply and not what the rules actually explicitly say

I'm starting to feel this is another example as to why it's difficult/impossible to make up a ruleset that covers absolutely everything