Trophy only or payout

[BuzzzChief]

Cash or not cash, killer player's pack or not is usually the least of my concerns when choosing to play a tournament. Cost, course, format, and maybe even the potential weather all impact my decision more.

At the posed $45 for $70 player's pack, if I chose to play that tourney, I'd be more than happy with a trophy. My house is littered with Disc Golf trophies. And although the wife is starting to bitch about my interior decorating skills I expect to hang a few more before I hang it up.

PS, money is always cool.

Agreed with this. I would like a 5th option, $20 entry fee with a $30 player pack and trophy only. I'm playing tournaments for the sake of competition and having a good time with a bunch of disc golf addicts, and maybe playing a unique or difficult course layout. I have enough discs.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Spending $45 for 2 days entertainment? There's not a lot else that is that good value for money, it costs me half that to watch the latest release at the cinema for 2 hours.

This is 1/2 the cost of any other two day competition for any other sport i've played, and cheaper than a two day competition for any sport my daughters play. In all of those the most you can expect to get back is a T-shirt and maybe a water bottle and maybe a bag of little goodies donated from some local stores.

From the original poll I thought the issue was player expectations but if it is dictated by the PDGA that does need to change. Sure it may have been good to get people interested in breaking into the sport, but the sport has grown and is moving forward and is time to adapt. Time to address that bribing people to play is not the next step to move forward but, emphasizing organization and competition.

 

[JC17393]

Thanks for printing those numbers. There are a few weird trends in there. Why do you get paid more for winning a field of 20 than a field of 30? But like you said, the money goes to depth. If you want a high payout for 1st place, you have to add cash to the payout. But the general trend is that if there's no added cash, the winner will receive about 4x his entry fee.

And for a very odd twist, the calculator shows higher winners payout for a 50% payout than a 45% payout in many cases.

50 players, $20 each ($1000 purse), pays top 23 (45%), 1st place = $70 (3.5x entry fee)
50 players, $20 each ($1000 purse), pays top 25 (50%), 1st place = $100 (5x entry fee)

25 players, $50 each ($1250 purse), pays top 11 (45%), 1st place = $175 (3.5x entry fee)
25 players, $50 each ($1250 purse), pays top 13 (50%), 1st place = $213 (4.3x entree fee)

25 players, $50 each, $500 added ($1750 purse), pays top 11 (45%), 1st place = $245
25 players, $50 each, $500 added ($1750 purse), pays top 13 (50%), 1st place = $298

I can't think of any logic to why that would happen. Bug report?
On the Pro side, the calculator makes sense. As the payout percentage goes down, the winner's payout goes up. The Pro curve is also steeper, with more money going to the top 3-4 places than the Am version and less going to the rest of the field.

I think the differences when looking at various field sizes is primarily in the fractions of dollars and rounding. Sometimes due to rounding, adding one more player increases the number of paying spots, sometimes it does not. Additionally, the formula strives to pay last cash an amount roughly equivalent to the entry fee. So for a $20 entry, last cash is typically $20 give or take a couple bucks either way. That impacts the way the money gets distributed...particularly when trying to maintain notable differences between the places. Bottom line though is it is still just a few dollars one way or the other, which is insignificant statistically.

 

[Royal Hill]

So?

It is far easier to satisfy True Amateur requirements than the demand of big payouts when you are charging a lower entry fee. I've been able to maintain a $20 entry fee at my B-tier for over a decade by running a True Amateur event while watching am entry fees balloon over the same period for events that focus the return of entry fees through a payout.

If one of the negatives of the traditional model is escalating and increasingly prohibitive entry fees, then the True Amateur model offers the opportunity for a solution.

I like JC's thoughts here. Though, I am personally less focused on increasing fees being prohibitive - as I think even they are good value compared to other sporting activities in the marketplace as been talked about. But I do see them and many current event structures being "selective" in nature. (You catch what you bait for)

This is meaning that the nature of the event structure is "selecting" for its participants, then… it is seen that these that are selected want more…and more…and more…of that particular bait and escalation continues.

It's that if you market to payout - you get (develop/train) a player community focused on payout. If you market to Recognition only, you get a community that will value that as a focus.

room for both, but be careful taking future event advice from fish you've already caught - if you are looking for wide growth. Those fish don't help you involve those were not interested in your bait at all. Those caught, just want more of the same bait! (but you caught them with what you had, so why use more of the same?)

I think this is part of the escalation game - small pond, small circles. I believe its part of why as time moves forward in an area of new disc golf growth, the demographics and interest focus of the perceived "regulars" gets narrower and narrower. (usually driven by the more vocal "winners" in such a system)

 

[Improbably]

The question is, would you play in an amateur tournament with a $45 entry fee if you received a players pack valued at $70 with no payouts except for a nice trophy?

What exactly is in the players pack valued at $70? Itemized please.

 

[dobbins66]

To me it's more about the courses and how the event is organized. I'll travel 2 hours for well run events on courses that I like.

 

[ThomasOrion]

The pack, and a good time, with a nice trophy would be cool, but I STILL think top 3 should get MORE. It's only fair.

But I'd still play, are we talking a C-teir style tourney or what?

I've done a C-teir and travelled 2.5 hrs for it, and it was more of a lot of fun and experience. No player pack tho, i like the packs because no matter what you get something unique and cool and theres less pressure a bit.

Everyone is down for a good time, so thats cool, just do SOMETHING for top 3.....

 

[AndyJB]

You want something for top three? Go play Open for cash. Simple.

Top 3 in MA3 and MA2 dont deserve ****. Neither does MA1, really, but at least there the competition is fiercer and closer to the Open level.

Top three getting payout isnt "fair" if you are an amateur. Even a semi-pro. If you are playing amateur disc golf to win prizes and money, you are kind of missing the point. Youre also kind of a piece of ****. I know and play with a lot of MA1 guys, and nearly all of them dont care about players packs or prizes. They do it for the competition and to "pay their dues" until they feel they are ready to move up and play for that sweet,sweet moolah.

Your experiences may vary.

 

[joshmo65]

What exactly is in the players pack valued at $70? Itemized please.

I haven't even decided whether to do trophy only yet which is the point of this thread. If I were, the players pack would be something like a hoodie, tourney disc, metal mini, pint glass, and something else in the $10-$15 range in addition to other little things that get tossed in. I'd love to do something like a disc gator, but I think they would be too much to fill in. There are other threads that discuss what people want in their players packs, so I'll peruse those and see what else I can think of.

 

[AndyJB]

To further clarify:

In most other sports, even fringe sports, amateur and semi-pro classifications/events are to bring people into the game, and encourage them to move up to the pros to play for money. Its also to give people who still love to play and compete a chance to do so with others of like skill level, even if they aren't good enough to be professionals.

You cant really compare disc golf to other sports, though. Its like non-marathon running, bowling, beer league softball, darts and golf all kind of mashed together. Its totally unique, and I get that.

But I just cannot wrap my head around people being "amateurs" and expecting to be paid for it. I understand the previous points about it just being a meaningless word and all that jazz, but my point of view still stands and, I believe,has merit.

I have heard ams,guys playing in MA2 and even once someone playing in MA3 complaining about either not getting a payout or the payout not being big enough. I wanted to verbally bitch slap them for such impudence.

HOWEVER, I also recognize I am so far in the majority on this that I might as well be pissing in the wind. Paying amateurs is here to stay. Its not in and of itself bad...its just another unique part of disc golf that makes it unlike any other game or sport.

But that doesnt mean I have to like it, either.

 

[DatRedDude]

You want something for top three? Go play Open for cash. Simple.

Top 3 in MA3 and MA2 dont deserve ****. Neither does MA1, really, but at least there the competition is fiercer and closer to the Open level.

Top three getting payout isnt "fair" if you are an amateur. Even a semi-pro. If you are playing amateur disc golf to win prizes and money, you are kind of missing the point. Youre also kind of a piece of ****. I know and play with a lot of MA1 guys, and nearly all of them dont care about players packs or prizes. They do it for the competition and to "pay their dues" until they feel they are ready to move up and play for that sweet,sweet moolah.

Your experiences may vary.

Got it, everyone playing for plastic are kinda peices of #%#. The Pro's don't support this sport. the amount of money that is generated by the peices of $##@ is hands down more than you will ever get from the open level. I don't have an issue with trophy only but i also could care less about a trophy. They aren't getting put on a shelf in my frolf room. I don't even need a return on my investment from a players pack perspective. I like a maybe a cool tourney stamped disc and some good competition. If at the end i win some plastic yay me. Not expected but won't feel guilty about it either.

 

[DatRedDude]

To further clarify:

In most other sports, even fringe sports, amateur and semi-pro classifications/events are to bring people into the game, and encourage them to move up to the pros to play for money. Its also to give people who still love to play and compete a chance to do so with others of like skill level, even if they aren't good enough to be professionals.

You cant really compare disc golf to other sports, though. Its like non-marathon running, bowling, beer league softball, darts and golf all kind of mashed together. Its totally unique, and I get that.

But I just cannot wrap my head around people being "amateurs" and expecting to be paid for it. I understand the previous points about it just being a meaningless word and all that jazz, but my point of view still stands and, I believe,has merit.

I have heard ams,guys playing in MA2 and even once someone playing in MA3 complaining about either not getting a payout or the payout not being big enough. I wanted to verbally bitch slap them for such impudence.

HOWEVER, I also recognize I am so far in the majority on this that I might as well be pissing in the wind. Paying amateurs is here to stay. Its not in and of itself bad...its just another unique part of disc golf that makes it unlike any other game or sport.

But that doesnt mean I have to like it, either.

Way more diplomatic way of putting it lol. Now that i am involved more in my club and assisting with running events i see this first hand and it is appalling. I agree with most of what you say outside of everyone being #%#^s :thmbup:

 

[Royal Hill]

I think the PDGA is already starting to attempt to buck some traditions in their adoption of "True Amateur" for Worlds and their encouraging of other events to do the same. From there, it's more a matter of the events themselves both adopting the philosophy and then scaling back the cost as well. It really has to be a gradual change to undo the years/decades of the old ways in order to be fully effective.

If we see a point where more amateur events are in the "True Amateur" mold of being player pack/experience heavy rather than primarily payout heavy, then it's just a matter of reducing entry fees from their ridiculous levels and scaling back the player packs accordingly (while maintaining the experience factor). Honestly, there's no reason that one can't have a B or A-tier level event that is worth traveling to that only charges amateurs somewhere between $25 and $40.

Didn't want this one to get passed by too quickly. The big view.
Which is that there are some trends afoot in this direction.

When asked - in the long range, will there be more or less of a trend towards True Amateur formats? - I would say more.

The counter - will there be more or less percentage being faux-pro? I think the rise of the competing Pro Tour circuits will potentially play a role in influencing the answer. (maybe depending on their success or which of them if any, are successful)

The development of True Pro circuits - if they stick - is that more and more faux-pro events may face decision points about what and who they are. Some event directors may charge ahead and try to track towards being a part of the big show, and others will see that the True Pros are not going to be coming to their faux pros events anyway… and that the -new - *TruePro* model is getting away from their resources and wherewithal so why pretend?

So… there's a possibility in some market areas that a successful TruPro circuit leads to a move towards a more grassrootsy local scene.

The Top Down influence as mentioned in the True Amateur shifting for worlds of course plays an influence.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Way more diplomatic way of putting it lol. Now that i am involved more in my club and assisting with running events i see this first hand and it is appalling. I agree with most of what you say outside of everyone being #%#^s :thmbup:

Well to be fair he wasn't calling everyone a piece of $#!{ but those who seem to be '~playing to win something'
I'm not sure I would call anyone out specifically as trash for that, but to claim its not fair is pretty ridiculous which seems to be the post that set off the rant in the first place.

That a DG tournament is about the cheapest competition in an organized or semi-organized sport I think i've ever heard of, and that there is any kind of sentiment that participants, whether winning or just playing, deserve more for their money than the experience is the mind boggling part here.

 

[esdubya]

Good poll! Thanks for creating.

My #1 determination for whether to play or not is the goal(s) of the club running the event. Knowing at the end of the day regardless of payout percentage, players pack value, merch payouts or not, all of my entry fee $ is (hopefully) going towards helping this club either maintain an existing course or install a new one, or raise money for a charity. Raising money through merch at tournaments is one of the things as a sport we are best at doing. It also happens to be relatively easy if you follow the PDGA guidelines.

I just want to be sure that it goes to a good cause. I tend not to support the clubs that only exist to run more tournaments.

 

[ScottyLove]

I voted, No that I prefer to play for merch, but honestly, I'd probably still play anyhow. Trophy only is just not my preference.

 

[DatRedDude]

Well to be fair he wasn't calling everyone a piece of $#!{ but those who seem to be '~playing to win something'
I'm not sure I would call anyone out specifically as trash for that, but to claim its not fair is pretty ridiculous which seems to be the post that set off the rant in the first place.

That a DG tournament is about the cheapest competition in an organized or semi-organized sport I think i've ever heard of, and that there is any kind of sentiment that participants, whether winning or just playing, deserve more for their money than the experience is the mind boggling part here.

Agree, but it also took me a couple years to get to that point. The beast is out of the cage, good luck getting him back in. In the end, no matter the event i play, a dry fit shirt with the event logo or a disc with a tourney stamp is good with me.

 

[AndyJB]

Good poll! Thanks for creating.

My #1 determination for whether to play or not is the goal(s) of the club running the event. Knowing at the end of the day regardless of payout percentage, players pack value, merch payouts or not, all of my entry fee $ is (hopefully) going towards helping this club either maintain an existing course or install a new one, or raise money for a charity. Raising money through merch at tournaments is one of the things as a sport we are best at doing. It also happens to be relatively easy if you follow the PDGA guidelines.

I just want to be sure that it goes to a good cause. I tend not to support the clubs that only exist to run more tournaments.

Disc Golf in general needs more people like esdubya out there. My hat's off to you, really. If we had more altruistic players and less greedy ones, these threads wouldn't keep popping up.

 

[esdubya]

Disc Golf in general needs more people like esdubya out there. My hat's off to you, really. If we had more altruistic players and less greedy ones, these threads wouldn't keep popping up.

Appreciate the kind words, although it did take me many years to reach this understanding. As a new tournament player I admit that I used to love the merch-a-palooza at the weekend tournaments.

It took being on the other side of the table running events and helping to run a club for me to ask the question "what is the point of all of this?". My answer was to define a clear mission statement for the club, make it public, and stick to it. I think everyone involved with an event or series of events from the organizers to the players to the sponsors should be able to answer the question of why we are doing this.

 

[Royal Hill]

It took being on the other side of the table running events and helping to run a club for me to ask the question "what is the point of all of this?". My answer was to define a clear mission statement for the club, make it public, and stick to it. I think everyone involved with an event or series of events from the organizers to the players to the sponsors should be able to answer the question of why we are doing this.

I believe there was a time where the "merchapalooza" was indeed fulfilling a vital and critical sport growth role that other means couldn't fill. That is - when access and availability of disc golf plastic was harder to come by. (or d near impossible to get so I hear)
If there is no other way to locally get discs and equipment, those hosting and toting around van loads and trailer loads of plastic become important to seeding the rise of a new sport. Those early Johnny Appleseed van driving, event spreading, frissbee love types saw the plastic distribution they were doing (via events and such) as their means of subsistence but also at the same time their mission.

but… in many areas, likely now most, with the much wider plastic distribution out there, and also that all are reachable via ecommerce - that tie in doesn't have to be there. It can, yes… and we know wholesale/retail spread and bulk purchasing makes the world go around, and for some promoters it is their only chance at subsistence living, but it doesn't have to be integrated every time just because. (This coming from someone who does a pile of hotstamp design)