True last point of contact - Tristan Tanner

[Nick Carroll]

Interesting post by Tristan Tanner on his Instagram, where the camera catches the disc 1 frame from leaving his hand. It's most of the way out at this frame, and barely touched by his thumb and forefinger.

Would you guys say this is at the 10 o'clock position? For the sake of this post I'm going to posit - perhaps erroneously - he's throwing at 10:30 but it's for the sake of discussion. The reason I'm asking is because of the nose down conversation, and cues like "pouring the coffee" and "turn the key" that are often recommended.

Here's my suppositions. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

I think if the release point is at 12 o'clock, that "pouring the coffee" cue would theoretically matter more than the 10:30 position. And yes, I know we don't want to release at noon, but bear with me as I try to explain.

I think if the release point is at 9 o'clock, that "turning the key" cue would be more valid than at the 10:30 position. Perhaps at 10:30 both cues are worth considering, likely in tandem.

Here is the IG post if you want to view it to see it in motion. Thank you in advance!

 

[Sheep]

My thoughts are, I've done this with high speed.

And were not looking at the information properly with what he's talking about.

This is why I need to stop sucking at making video's, and just push out shit content anyways.

It's actually still touching my pointer finger in this frame.

I took this high speed, thats why the tape is there, to prove that what people "think" is the nose of the disc is incorrect.

And it's true.

Pouring the coffee does not necessarily make the disc "nose down" its not possible for it, because your 1/4 of the disc off with that action.

However, it's important that we move the wrist into a position, like i was saying in that short yesterday, to allow the disc to flex in a fashion that allows our grip and posture to push the disc out on plane with our swing.

We should then be adjusting the hyzer/anhyzer angle with our body, not our arm/hand/grip.

The only place i'd encourage manipulating your release angle is with a forehand, cause ... well, forehands dont care.

 

[Sheep]

This one I was gripping the tape with my thumb.

 

[RowingBoats]

Interesting post by Tristan Tanner on his Instagram, where the camera catches the disc 1 frame from leaving his hand. It's most of the way out at this frame, and barely touched by his thumb and forefinger.
View attachment 330573
Would you guys say this is at the 10 o'clock position? For the sake of this post I'm going to posit - perhaps erroneously - he's throwing at 10:30 but it's for the sake of discussion. The reason I'm asking is because of the nose down conversation, and cues like "pouring the coffee" and "turn the key" that are often recommended.

Here's my suppositions. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

I think if the release point is at 12 o'clock, that "pouring the coffee" cue would theoretically matter more than the 10:30 position. And yes, I know we don't want to release at noon, but bear with me as I try to explain.

I think if the release point is at 9 o'clock, that "turning the key" cue would be more valid than at the 10:30 position. Perhaps at 10:30 both cues are worth considering, likely in tandem.

Here is the IG post if you want to view it to see it in motion. Thank you in advance!

That image lines up with what I mentally model as my 'smash point' goal, but I am looking forward to any high speed footage that can dig into it more.

 

[HB2017]

What are these clock positions (10:30, 12:00, etc) in relation to? How confidently can you know based off a picture? Do you know what type of shot was being thrown and what the target was? I think you need to answer these questions before drawing any conclusions from a picture or video of someone's throw.

The hand is in ulnar deviation ("pouring the coffee") and supination ("turning the key") during a good release. It is the combination of these two motions that produces a nose-down flight. I'm not sure it's more complicated than that.

 

[RowingBoats]

What are these clock positions (10:30, 12:00, etc) in relation to? How confidently can you know based off a picture? Do you know what type of shot was being thrown and what the target was? I think you need to answer these questions before drawing any conclusions from a picture or video of someone's throw.

The hand is in ulnar deviation ("pouring the coffee") and supination ("turning the key") during a good release. It is the combination of these two motions that produces a nose-down flight. I'm not sure it's more complicated than that.

Ya, we tried to have this discussion a few weeks ago and I agree its not a great way to describe it and expect other people to have the same definitions To really answer your first questions we'd have to agree on a lot of different factors.

Based on that image and the way I visualize the swing, I'd say his trajectory is going to be in line with where the back of his hand is facing in this example.

 

[Nick Carroll]

What are these clock positions (10:30, 12:00, etc) in relation to? How confidently can you know based off a picture? Do you know what type of shot was being thrown and what the target was? I think you need to answer these questions before drawing any conclusions from a picture or video of someone's throw.

The hand is in ulnar deviation ("pouring the coffee") and supination ("turning the key") during a good release. It is the combination of these two motions that produces a nose-down flight. I'm not sure it's more complicated than that.

1) If 12:00 is the throw direction (straight ahead) the release point is often in the 10 o'clock range for the disc to go in that direction. That's typical for the shot TT is performing.
2) I don't know confidently what exact (to the minute) clock position the release point is in that picture, so I presumed for the sake of discussion it's 10:30. My guess from watching the video in the Instagram post is 10:00, but the exact release point in the picture isn't important for this thread.
3) As with the exact release point, the type of shot and location of the target isn't essential to this discussion. That said, you can see in the video it's a slight hyzer release with a high launch angle, and the disc is hyzer flipping to the end of the clip.
4) That depends on the conclusions that are being reached for. If this isn't more complicated than "pour the coffee" and/or "turn the key" then none of these other details matter. Like, I don't even know why you would want to know any details if your position is fundamentally without detail.

Me: I want to throw this tunnel shot? How best should I do that?
"I'm Helping": Don't hit a tree.
Me: Thanks.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Ya, we tried to have this discussion a few weeks ago and I agree its not a great way to describe it and expect other people to have the same definitions To really answer your first questions we'd have to agree on a lot of different factors.

Based on that image and the way I visualize the swing, I'd say his trajectory is going to be in line with where the back of his hand is facing in this example.

That's what it looks like to me. I've not seen any real disagreement that release points are around the 10 o'clock relative position. Certainly for the shot TT performed, it's not an unusual shot. He's hyzer flipping some driver in what looks like a distance line by the time the video clip stops.

Update: I just read through the thread and TT says he's throwing an Avalanche, which is essentially a Firebird type disc, so this is just a standard hyzer, and the disc is probably not even going to flip up. His subsequent throw looks identical in terms of angle and height, but it's a flippier distance driver.

 

[timothy42b]

That's what it looks like to me. I've not seen any real disagreement that release points are around the 10 o'clock relative position. Certainly for the shot TT performed, it's not an unusual shot. He's hyzer flipping some driver in what looks like a distance line by the time the video clip stops.

That 1030 is relative to the intended direction of the shot, right? Although I suspect it is oftened assumed to be either target direction or tee pad alignment. But when we practice trying to eject at 1030, we're probably referencing our body position. Those three are not the same. Probably.

Here's the thing. We know the actual release angle. It's 9:00. (Newton's 1st Law. First published in 1687.) Any object traveling a curved path has an instantaneous direction tangent to the curve and perpendicular to the radius of the curve at that point.

And the arm seems to be straight or close to it at the hit. But the arm is not the radius of the curve at that point, because the arm is moving more slowly and the elbow is unhinging rapidly. (unless you're Sarah Hummel - but I digress) I'm not sure exactly where the real center of the swing is. But I'm pretty sure that release is at 9:00 relative to the center of the swing path at that point. And I know the shoulder is not the center of the swing or release would be at 9:00.

I should know how to calculate the equation for that path, we spent days on 4 bar linkages. But I graduated in 1990 and that was kind of a painful class anyway. (but it wouldn't help me throw one foot farther.)

 

[RowingBoats]

That 1030 is relative to the intended direction of the shot, right? Although I suspect it is oftened assumed to be either target direction or tee pad alignment. But when we practice trying to eject at 1030, we're probably referencing our body position. Those three are not the same. Probably.

Here's the thing. We know the actual release angle. It's 9:00. (Newton's 1st Law. First published in 1687.) Any object traveling a curved path has an instantaneous direction tangent to the curve and perpendicular to the radius of the curve at that point.

And the arm seems to be straight or close to it at the hit. But the arm is not the radius of the curve at that point, because the arm is moving more slowly and the elbow is unhinging rapidly. (unless you're Sarah Hummel - but I digress) I'm not sure exactly where the real center of the swing is. But I'm pretty sure that release is at 9:00 relative to the center of the swing path at that point. And I know the shoulder is not the center of the swing or release would be at 9:00.

I should know how to calculate the equation for that path, we spent days on 4 bar linkages. But I graduated in 1990 and that was kind of a painful class anyway. (but it wouldn't help me throw one foot farther.)

Ya, I understand what is being described, but I agree using the clockface to describe it doesn't truly work when you think about it.

This is the best thread about that particular concept:

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Sheep]

Ya, I understand what is being described, but I agree using the clockface to describe it doesn't truly work when you think about it.

This is the best thread about that particular concept:

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Part of what I added being ignored, because what we have is multiple points of correlation to any level of clock face.

We have the disc clock release involved as well, plus how we clock our hips to our shoulders, then finally the arm as well in that.

So, I think what you're saying with using the clockface to describe doesn't really work unless you put in a lot of caveats to made the correlation.

And putting some thought into this the other day while driving. I think some of this data is very different for someone for instance, like emerson keith or kevin jones, vs someone like calvin or someone else with long ass arms.

 

[timothy42b]

We have the disc clock release involved as well, plus how we clock our hips to our shoulders, then finally the arm as well in that.

So, I think what you're saying with using the clockface to describe doesn't really work unless you put in a lot of caveats to made the correlation.

The sequence of the kinetic chain is important. The elements must be in order
.
But also there is an optimal time for each link in the chain to peak so there is correct acceleration of the next link. (I have reasons for never using the word momentum.)

It seems reasonable to me that deviations from that optimal timing, which we all have, should result in differences in physical location in space. I have no idea if it's true but it seems reasonable.

 

[Sheep]

The sequence of the kinetic chain is important. The elements must be in order
.
But also there is an optimal time for each link in the chain to peak so there is correct acceleration of the next link. (I have reasons for never using the word momentum.)

It seems reasonable to me that deviations from that optimal timing, which we all have, should result in differences in physical location in space. I have no idea if it's true but it seems reasonable.

The point I was trying to make is that each persons "optimal time" is going to be different.

There is no "right answer" to the subject of this thread.

There is "in the ballpark"

So, doing things like form reviews, I look for "are their shoulders in the ball park" when it comes to shoulder timing, not are they 45° to the target like someone suggests.

Because we are all shaped differently, we all bend move and flex differently. Ya'll would loose your minds if I could just "grant" you some of my lower body flexibility while throwing, you'd be all over the map. I have to deal with lots of hip flexibility to start my timing, but deal with less upper body flexibility to continue my timing.

 

[Brychanus]

To simplify the mechanical goal I've had a hard time finding anything wrong with Sidewinder's "Leverage and Centrifugal Force Are Sideways" model. That can more or less unify what you're trying to do when swinging a club or racket or throwing a lever or ball for maximum force. I do think there is some variation away from the "ideal" even in some very far throwers, but they tend to be closer to the principle than not.

Where the arm ends up (and its angulation etc) is incidental under that model. In that case, GG and Tanner are committing the "same" act even though the absolute positions and angles are different at release.

It's also why I think RB and I probably access a similar sense of ripping through "10 o'clock-ish"- it's not so much the exact position that matters, but accessing whatever that better position is that achieves the effect relative to the body's posture which is/should be smashing "sideways." A lot of athletes find it and exploit it to an extent even if their form is imperfect just because they're used to similar-ish acts.

Also still seems to explain why players with poorer upper body lever sequences who learn to throw far tend to have wider upper arm angles at release/smash point.