Undoing years of bad habits

[Kwahlgren]

Hey y'all. Played a lot from the time I was 17-23 and then fell off. Started playing again about 2 years ago, currently 37 and 20 years later my body no longer accepts poor form without pain. Been browsing the forums here and feeling like I need some direction. I'm naturally right handed but have started throwing LHBH initially because of a shoulder injury but I've decided to stick with it since my left side has less incorrect muscle memory. I think my biggest issue is with timing as well as throwing from the back foot. Any help would be much appreciated.

Throwing rocs from a standstill in these videos

LHBH:
https://youtu.be/NdHVaxzd9FE

RHBH:
https://youtu.be/zl4jre9yuoA

RHBH roc standstills averaging about 220 (max distance about 280)

LHBH roc standstills averaging 180 (max distance 250)

 

[sidewinder22]

Same issue both ways. You are spinning everything open before shifting from behind.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[Kwahlgren]

Thank you for your feedback. Would you recommend I start with the one leg drill or crush the can? I suppose I'll do both and post the results.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ewalk
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[Kwahlgren]

Got a chance to get out and film some more throws but I had a few questions.

1. I don't feel like I've made any progress since the last videos, are more videos better or should I wait till I actually feel like something improved to film/upload?

2. I've been reading a lot about "the hit" because my main goal is to throw accurately, safely and efficiently not necessarily "far" and I definitely feel like I have a hard time keeping my hand on the outside of the disc and it wants to creep to the "front" however my timing is still way off. Does it make more sense for me to work on timing first or keeping my hand on the outside in pursuit of the hit?

3. When I throw more than 20 times with either hand, I get some soreness/pinching between my shoulder blade and spine which I assume is my scapula impinging on my trap/rhomboid from not properly following through. I also get pain in my left ankle when throwing LHBH, I'm assuming from not properly turning on my heel in the follow through. Is the fix for this just slowing everything way down?
4. When doing the e walk drill I don't feel like I'm getting my hips involved enough is the fix for this just working on hip mobility and over-exaggerating hip engagement?

5. On the off chance that there is a coach in the Philadelphia area anyone would recommend, I work much better with direct feedback in the moment and would happily pay for lessons.

On to the videos.

E-walk both sides: https://youtu.be/7kEb4n378Nk

E-walk RH:
https://youtu.be/3ofi_t8UQss

LH hammer throw late release
https://youtu.be/teJATKVWX3c

LH hammer throw "on time" release
https://youtu.be/pY_411qJv3M

LH standstills
https://youtu.be/LyHrbAS2RXY

RH standstills
https://youtu.be/BLMFFiHPjwk

RH into batting cage with walk up supposed to be slomo but uploaded as regular speed?

https://youtu.be/hkNwh-oZzDY
https://youtu.be/yvqQVas1x20

Thanks for any help you can offer (feel free to tell me not to post again till I have progress to show.)

 

[lostDoughnut]

Got a chance to get out and film some more throws but I had a few questions.

1. I don't feel like I've made any progress since the last videos, are more videos better or should I wait till I actually feel like something improved to film/upload?

this feeling took me a couple weeks to learn and even more time to really get down. to get it down by itself is one then but then to incorporate it into a throw with more dynamic movement is another. for me i really needed something heavy for my muscles to get a feel for it. i filled a cat litter box with water and swung that back and forth. that for me was great because it really force me to flex and extend my knees in the correct timing. the reason i needed a heavy weight as if i watch your video your left foot isnt very firm its loose

i liked this video, instead of ball i think of having a disc in my hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uWigK12xNY&t=358s

2. I've been reading a lot about "the hit" because my main goal is to throw accurately, safely and efficiently not necessarily "far" and I definitely feel like I have a hard time keeping my hand on the outside of the disc and it wants to creep to the "front" however my timing is still way off. Does it make more sense for me to work on timing first or keeping my hand on the outside in pursuit of the hit?
im not sure i ever thought about timing (i could be wrong). when i think about timing i always mess up. instead i do drills. examples ive seen on here that i like that help me 'describe how you start walking. its a bunch of dynamic movements done all at once. to focus on just one thing is difficult' mayb your upper arm to chest isnt wide enough causing some issues where the result of that is the disc is in the wrong location


3. When I throw more than 20 times with either hand, I get some soreness/pinching between my shoulder blade and spine which I assume is my scapula impinging on my trap/rhomboid from not properly following through. I also get pain in my left ankle when throwing LHBH, I'm assuming from not properly turning on my heel in the follow through. Is the fix for this just slowing everything way down?
i have a net that i throw into. the net was a huge help in having my brain slown down. before a net i thought i was slowing down but when i have a net in front of me my brain somehow clicks and i actually slow down

4. When doing the e walk drill I don't feel like I'm getting my hips involved enough is the fix for this just working on hip mobility and over-exaggerating hip engagement?
i am not sure

5. On the off chance that there is a coach in the Philadelphia area anyone would recommend, I work much better with direct feedback in the moment and would happily pay for lessons.
na. i dont live there at all


On to the videos.

E-walk both sides: https://youtu.be/7kEb4n378Nk

E-walk RH:
https://youtu.be/3ofi_t8UQss
your walking while the arm swings. i believe you only take a step when the hammer gets close to stopping at its peak

LH hammer throw late release
https://youtu.be/teJATKVWX3c
you start to swing before your left leg lands on the ground and the left foot doesnt look very firm during the movement. that hammer might be a bit tooo heavy for this drill as its causing your upper arm angle to chest to be very narrow. sometimes called hugging
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3163281&postcount=6

i posted some notes bolded in text. hope they help!!

 

[Kwahlgren]

Wow, lots to chew on here. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[sidewinder22]

On the EWalk you are stepping out laterally instead of walking more normal inline. Your shoulder is also not swinging back and forth enough over your knees/feet. So you want your center to only shift 1-2" laterally(basically stay centered/walking normal), while your shoulder makes a big swing back and forth from your center pulling you into the next step.

Note how much you have over-rotated and not brought your shoulder forward over the knee. All that hip rotation is stressing your ankle while I'm more squared up on the joints sideways and more weight forward which allows more effortless pivot.

I would keep working on shifting from behind, shift then rotate. Jake Azato is near Philly, I know he has excellent form and great guy, and heard he is good teacher. I'm about 2hrs from Philly.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118948

 

[Kwahlgren]

Thanks so much, so much to work on, especially seeing these two pictures next to each other. I'll try to reach out to Jake, used to see him at sedgley a lot back in the day.

 

[Kwahlgren]

Thanks so much, so much to work on, especially seeing these two pictures next to each other. I'll try to reach out to Jake, used to see him at sedgley a lot back in the day.

 

[Kwahlgren]

Just got back from taking my dog to the park and figured I'd bring some discs along as well. Threw into the batting cage, hoping to focus more on form and less on results/flight. My standstill throws still had everything opening up super early so I won't post those but I feel like I'm staying closed a little more effectively with the one leg drill. Also trying to focus on rotating my front hip back rather than swinging my back hip forwards. I tried to grab the frame at my release point to compare it to the throws from yesterday but the angle is a little different so I dunno how helpful it is.

RH one leg:
https://youtu.be/ONtFVG40x38

 

[sidewinder22]

I think it helps a lot to swing forward before starting the backswing, get more momentum flowing. EWalk might help more at this point.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487

 

[Kwahlgren]

No need to respond to this, kinda just using my thread as a journal at the moment.

I haven't been able to stop thinking about "the hit" as it relates to my grip wanting to creep forward to the nose of the disc rather than staying out the outside so today I decided to take it back even farther, before the weight shift, just focusing on turning my hips and shoulders and letting the disc rip out with a two finger grip.

Well, I'm pretty sure I've just been "releasing" the disc my whole life instead of ever getting a hit out of it because my shots at 50% effort with no weight shift but focusing on the hit were going just as far as those with a weight shift and full backswing. So for now, I think I'm going to try to un-learn releasing while drilling the heck out of the e-walk.

 

[Kwahlgren]

Messing around with some e walk stuff. Thought I'd give it a shot with my lighter medicine ball since using both hands would force my shoulders to turn more around my t-spine instead of my arm just hinging at the shoulder.

https://youtu.be/d9QLbhTCojM

Afterwards, went back and tried one handed and with a disc

https://youtu.be/Sy-c0UHOgTc

I think I'm getting the feel of it. Though, watching it back now, my comfy (sloppy) slippers weren't doing me any favors.

 

[Kwahlgren]

It's been a while, I keep straining my tricep while throwing. I've been working with a physical therapist which has been great for recovery and I'll go months without any pain and then some rounds I'll wake up the next day with a very sore tricep/shoulder but never any tennis elbow type pain which seems to be the more common expression of tricep tendonopathy. While the physical therapist has been great for recovery, I was hoping someone here might have some insight into what was causing me to strain my tricep during the throw.

Here's a short video of a recent practice throw. I know there's some OAT and I'm still opening my shoulders too early but I can't tell if the strain is caused by strong arming, my follow through or some other factor. Thanks for any help you can offer. While I'm happy to be able to throw left handed, it's just not as much fun.

https://youtube.com/shorts/GdDOJEXYm5g?feature=share

 

[Brychanus]

You are landing with your weight behind your brace rather than more on top of the leg like Elephant Walk or One Leg Drill and jamming the whole chain up behind it. Elbow/Shoulder/Triceps often tend to take abuse like that. See here for more triage:

2. Best Filming Practices:

- Keep camera stationary from start through followthrough/finish. Make sure to frame your whole body in the shot from feet to head. Do not cut off the finish!

- Film horizontal/landscape camera angle - Turn your phone sideways! Vertical/portrait camera angles suck! Widescreen was created for a reason - use it.

- Filming Angles - film from directly behind the tee and directly from the side of the tee you are facing during the throw. Two 90 degree 2-D camera angles allow you to better triangulate your 3-D balance. So much information is missing with only one camera angle. It is best if the camera is set at height between your navel and nips while standing upright. The more camera angles the merrier, but the others are not quite as useful. However if you can film from directly overhead/birdeye with a drone or from tree/roof of car - that is also very useful.

- Film Speed - It is best to include normal speed and slow mo, or high frame rate such as 240fps is best.

 

[Kwahlgren]

Thanks, that makes sense, i guess I'm overcompensating for energy leaking out over my plant foot in the past. sorry about the bad footage, just happened to be my most recent clip. Once my arm is feeling less sore I'll do some more intentional filming.

 

[Kwahlgren]

I'm a mechanically minded person so I just want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly. It sounds like because my momentum is jamming up behind the plant foot, it's not able to smoothly, come through and transfer to the disc. Instead, my shoulder is coming through ahead of the rest of my arm, creating separation between my shoulder and my lower arm ie: the upper head of the tricep is pulling at the lower head, causing tricep strain? Kind of ****ty localized lag instead of good, full body lag that can actually be released into the disc. Clearly I have to go back to the E-walk but are there any other drills or mobility exercises that might help me improve my plant/timing? Maybe some lower body drills that I can work on while my tricep heals?

 

[Brychanus]

I'm a mechanically minded person so I just want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly. It sounds like because my momentum is jamming up behind the plant foot, it's not able to smoothly, come through and transfer to the disc. Instead, my shoulder is coming through ahead of the rest of my arm, creating separation between my shoulder and my lower arm ie: the upper head of the tricep is pulling at the lower head, causing tricep strain? Kind of ****ty localized lag instead of good, full body lag that can actually be released into the disc. Clearly I have to go back to the E-walk but are there any other drills or mobility exercises that might help me improve my plant/timing? Maybe some lower body drills that I can work on while my tricep heals?

TL;DR need better video, but it's going to be a deeper problem in your chain and how your posture flows into the release and follow through.

The shoulder should be coming through or leading the elbow, which leads the wrist, which leads the nose of the disc getting ripped around. That's part of how lagged acceleration works at the end of the chain.

But the problem is that your bodyweight is not dynamically stacked on the front like when this process occurs. Since your weight or mass then isn't fully leading the swing, more force than ideal is (1) going back into the ground, which is inefficient and (2) ending up in your vulnerable tissues as your arm snaps around but your body wasn't fully leading and part of the mass was left behind. That's also why you fall back away from the line of play at the end.

The exact cause is very hard to see (for me) due to the camera angle and inability to see your transition move off the rear side. Your triceps is probably putting too much work in to compensate for your mass not fully leading the swing causing strain.

My guess is that if you did the one leg drill you would also tend to have trouble throwing balanced on the front leg.

 

[Kwahlgren]

Playing around, doing some filming today and figured I'd upload. Not a whole lot of progress here but maybe better footage. Still having trouble with engaging my drive leg, opening too early and having my hand lead the disc rather than allowing the disc to come around. I'm naturally right handed but I keep injuring my rotator cuff (20 years as a bicycle mechanic not awesome for the shoulder) so these are lefty shots.

From a technical perspective, could anyone help me figure out why slow motion videos upload full speed unless I upload them as a "short"

https://youtu.be/ob-Mm4QqFKA (Full speed)

https://youtube.com/shorts/DYimZlQOo5c?feature=share ("Short" but keeps the slow motion)