Isn't it going against everything taught in the discing down thread to tell people to use a disc that is faster than they need to execute a shot? Guy throwing Boss, when Teebird would do, or Teebird when Roc would do seems strangely similar to throwing an Excal or Firebird when a Drone would do. How exactly does this differ? Working hard today, I'll check in more as able.
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VERY overstable mids
- Thread starter hewittdallas
- Start date
toothyfish
* Ace Member *
Sounds contradictive, but let me try here....
The discing down approach is to use slower discs in order to improve form, control, and distance. These, in the long run, are the key to throwing fast drivers. But it is also the key to line shaping, to really learn how to control a disc's flight rather than just the "out of the box" numbers. Plus, along the way, you start to realize that these discs can really go far...with better control.
The power-down of drivers is actually the reverse of this, but yet is an extension of disc control. It also goes along with mold minimization. In other words, rather than have a disc for each shot, have one disc/mold capable of many shots. This of course requires more disc control, but that's the point: to become better at controlling a disc. For me, at least, powering down drivers means fairways (Eagle, Whippets, Firebirds) not distance (Boss, Force, XCal)
Make sense? They don't contradict each other, it's more of a progression.
Noobies reaching for the Boss to go 300 ft aren't learning the basics. Unless you stow it away, work with your putters and mids and then eventually fairways, you won't correct the form issues you have. Once you do this, that Boss may go 400ft.
Now that you have gained control of discs and are comfortable with basic line shaping, learning to power down drivers is another asset to have.
I know for fact that I can do more with 6 discs now then I could with a bag of 15 different molds nine months ago.
YMMV...
The discing down approach is to use slower discs in order to improve form, control, and distance. These, in the long run, are the key to throwing fast drivers. But it is also the key to line shaping, to really learn how to control a disc's flight rather than just the "out of the box" numbers. Plus, along the way, you start to realize that these discs can really go far...with better control.
The power-down of drivers is actually the reverse of this, but yet is an extension of disc control. It also goes along with mold minimization. In other words, rather than have a disc for each shot, have one disc/mold capable of many shots. This of course requires more disc control, but that's the point: to become better at controlling a disc. For me, at least, powering down drivers means fairways (Eagle, Whippets, Firebirds) not distance (Boss, Force, XCal)
Make sense? They don't contradict each other, it's more of a progression.
Noobies reaching for the Boss to go 300 ft aren't learning the basics. Unless you stow it away, work with your putters and mids and then eventually fairways, you won't correct the form issues you have. Once you do this, that Boss may go 400ft.
Now that you have gained control of discs and are comfortable with basic line shaping, learning to power down drivers is another asset to have.
I know for fact that I can do more with 6 discs now then I could with a bag of 15 different molds nine months ago.
YMMV...
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hewittdallas
Eagle Member
Honestly, I had no idea this thread would turn into such a discussion when I posed the original question a few weeks back. However, I really appreciate the feedback as I have been trying a lot of the things mentioned.
I started from the position of using the super overstable mold because it naturally fit the shot. For the past few weeks I left the Demon in the car and played strictly with my Element (understable) and various drivers (see sig). I do believe I am now leaning toward the powering down method only because I have discovered so many new aspects of certain discs (especially my Element and TeeBird) that I never used before.
Last week I made an amazing approach shot by underpowering my TeeBird so it would fade right between two massive oaks and planted it right by the pin. Never would have even thought to try that before hearing the suggestions here. I'm not saying that shot could not have been done with other discs, but my friends thought I was crazy for my disc selection until they saw the result.
Who knows, maybe some more overstable mids will find their way back into my bag in the future. However, for the time being, discovering these new lines is far more exciting. And maybe that is an important element of this discussion. Sort of the intangible value of you, the player, shaping the line and controlling the shot; not the disc. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I started from the position of using the super overstable mold because it naturally fit the shot. For the past few weeks I left the Demon in the car and played strictly with my Element (understable) and various drivers (see sig). I do believe I am now leaning toward the powering down method only because I have discovered so many new aspects of certain discs (especially my Element and TeeBird) that I never used before.
Last week I made an amazing approach shot by underpowering my TeeBird so it would fade right between two massive oaks and planted it right by the pin. Never would have even thought to try that before hearing the suggestions here. I'm not saying that shot could not have been done with other discs, but my friends thought I was crazy for my disc selection until they saw the result.
Who knows, maybe some more overstable mids will find their way back into my bag in the future. However, for the time being, discovering these new lines is far more exciting. And maybe that is an important element of this discussion. Sort of the intangible value of you, the player, shaping the line and controlling the shot; not the disc. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
garublador
* Ace Member *
Yep, it's backwards. What's really funny is how often people are opposed to both. The same people that don't want to disc down also don't want to use a very overstable driver over a mid. It's an enigma wrapped in a riddle sprinkled with irony.
As to why it's like that, I can only guess. My current guess is that overstable mids are easy to get to their cruise speed, but really difficult to throw fast enough to turn. So as long as they've hit their cruise speed but haven't exceeded the speed at which they'll turn, you'll get a really similar flight. The problem is that flight is so consistent that your line shaping is severely limited.
With the faster discs it's quite easy to throw below their cruising speed to get a more overstable flight so throwing slower or faster will allow you to manipulate both stability and distance.
My observation are that there are two type of people who use the VOM (very overstable mids).
1) People who like the consistent line they get and then throw that line whenever possible (if I throw just to the right of that tree I'll park the hole)
2) People who throw super far and their VOM acts the same as a VOD for the rest of us.
I can't argue with #2. If you can get a VOM out to 350' then you don't need the help.
Take that scenario from #1. A guy throwing a VOD will have the option of throwing around the tree, thus taking it out of the equation. The guy with the VOM will have to throw just right to avoid missing the tree or going so wide that he comes up short.
Yes, the VOD guy will need better line shaping skills to pull it off and assuming equal trajectory hitting skills it's a wash. However, I'm saying that those line shaping skills are easy to learn and it's still a very consistent shot. Having more or better skills is always better, so why not build up the ones that are easy to gain? Why not be the guy with the good trajectory hitting skills AND the guy with better line shaping skills when it's easy to do?
garublador
* Ace Member *
FWIW, the argument isn't overstable mid vs stable mid. It's overstable mid vs overstable driver. The exercise you're going through with using stable discs for overstable type shots is really good to do, too.
medicinalfunk
* Ace Member *
how does everyone here feel about the ringer as an overstable approach disc
Carry a Limited Addition KC Worlds Z-Drone here Weighed it out and it's actually 182 not the 178 that it's marked as (happy to say the least, I was)
Baby blue....such a lovely disc.
Baby blue....such a lovely disc.
hewittdallas
Eagle Member
So I reread my post, and see how it gave that impression. I was actually trying to make the point you alluded to there. I have been able to use my drivers, in addition to my understable mids, considerably more than ever before. It has really removed the temptation to put the VOM back in the bag.
Granted using overstable drivers and such for multiple shots, short/long, does work, having the VOM in the bag keeps you from using power fluctuations of that magnitude with just one disc.
Applying the same power to different discs and letting the speed of the disc (slow / fast) and it's flight pattern achieve you're shot, IMO, is much more accurate then using power fluctuations that great, on the same disc. Not to say go out and buy discs of all flight paths...always learn the discs you have before buying new plastic. Makes a bag complicated.
Of course, whatever keeps you shooting less strokes in your round is what you should stick with.
Example --- my brother uses a Champion Boss for short shots (some 50 Ft. on in) where he wants to skip or take a hard left...I however, use the Z-Drone. If I need more distance, I'll get out the Whippet-X. I carry a few VOM's in the bag at all times. Even on those days where you just can't push your shot like you're used to doing, you'll have another overstable mid, a faster one, to produce the same shot.
Didn't read all the thread, so hope this is what this is about.
Best overstable mids in my opinion --
Drone -- FLX / Z ...both great
Gator
Applying the same power to different discs and letting the speed of the disc (slow / fast) and it's flight pattern achieve you're shot, IMO, is much more accurate then using power fluctuations that great, on the same disc. Not to say go out and buy discs of all flight paths...always learn the discs you have before buying new plastic. Makes a bag complicated.
Of course, whatever keeps you shooting less strokes in your round is what you should stick with.
Example --- my brother uses a Champion Boss for short shots (some 50 Ft. on in) where he wants to skip or take a hard left...I however, use the Z-Drone. If I need more distance, I'll get out the Whippet-X. I carry a few VOM's in the bag at all times. Even on those days where you just can't push your shot like you're used to doing, you'll have another overstable mid, a faster one, to produce the same shot.
Didn't read all the thread, so hope this is what this is about.
Best overstable mids in my opinion --
Drone -- FLX / Z ...both great
Gator
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Johnson
Double Eagle Member
177 Goldline Lat.64 Core. Nuff said.
Extremely overstable discs are almost utility discs by default since the majority of their usefulness lies in fighting headwinds. Drivers handle wind better than mids so in other words this is the exception of the discing down rule, unless you play in 20+ mph winds all the time. Plus, it's mold minimalism friendly.
Cosign what Toothy and Garu said.
imoser_me
Par Member
I will say that I have tried powering down stable to overstable drivers. In fact, if I need a huge fade, I go to my drivers. I go to my drone for the predictable fade for shots under 250. My experience with powering down drivers has been filled with underthrows, overthrows, bad skips, overfade, underfade, etc. It has also produced some great shots, but those have not been as common. In fact, just today I pulled out a Trident instead of the Drone and parked a hole.
I think that people like the Drone the same way as the Rhyno. They are both like bricks with little glide, so how much power you put into them is how far they go. To me, throwing drivers like my Striker for hyzer shots under 200 has been too touchy and I can't find the power to accurately get it under the basket.
I think that people like the Drone the same way as the Rhyno. They are both like bricks with little glide, so how much power you put into them is how far they go. To me, throwing drivers like my Striker for hyzer shots under 200 has been too touchy and I can't find the power to accurately get it under the basket.
jdw80550
* Ace Member *
So a sad day happend last week, lost my FLX drone. Went to the store all they had were pro-d, this is definately not the same disc!! That being said it has forced me to use an overstable driver, and I can honestly say I hate powering down a driver. So inconsistent in my distances, will definately save one slot in my bag of a flx drone, even if it is only for one or two shots. I need my flx drone like a junkie needs smack.
hewittdallas
Eagle Member
I had a similar experience the first few times I went out without my Demon. I have had mixed results with powering down the drivers so far, but most of it stems from form issues. I keep losing the snap on my powered down throws unless I remind myself every time. I'll probably need to watch the video from the hit back again for a refresher.
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